WEBVTT 00:00:05.004 --> 00:00:08.775 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% I want to thank everybody for joining us this 00:00:08.842 --> 00:00:12.245 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% afternoon, for those of you who are joining us by 00:00:12.312 --> 00:00:18.718 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% video conference at ATRDC it is a gloomy and rainy 00:00:18.785 --> 00:00:21.554 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% day outside, probably not something you're not used 00:00:21.621 --> 00:00:24.023 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% to up in Boston, but the mood of the city is 00:00:24.090 --> 00:00:26.826 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% bright, after completing their sweep of the 00:00:26.893 --> 00:00:30.864 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Cardinals last night the Nationals have advanced to 00:00:30.930 --> 00:00:32.298 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% their first-ever World Series. 00:00:32.365 --> 00:00:33.933 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% [APPLAUSE] 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:38.805 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% And with the Caps as Barry is very proud 00:00:38.872 --> 00:00:41.875 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% of their Stanley Cup victory. 00:00:41.941 --> 00:00:47.046 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Last year DC could be on its way to becoming a city 00:00:47.113 --> 00:00:50.350 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% of champions, though there's always the 00:00:50.417 --> 00:00:51.017 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% Redskins. 00:00:51.084 --> 00:00:56.790 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% Today we're excited to have Professor Shoshana 00:00:56.856 --> 00:00:57.457 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% Zuboff with us. 00:00:57.524 --> 00:01:00.326 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% She studies digitization and its relationship with 00:01:00.393 --> 00:01:04.230 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% both the history and future of capitalism. 00:01:04.297 --> 00:01:08.935 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% Her work also focuses on the consequences of 00:01:09.002 --> 00:01:11.538 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% digitization on individuals, 00:01:11.604 --> 00:01:14.707 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% organizations, and society at large. 00:01:14.774 --> 00:01:17.944 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Her recent scholarship finds that the digital age 00:01:18.011 --> 00:01:22.682 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% has led to a new form of capitalism based on the 00:01:22.749 --> 00:01:26.753 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% provisions of free services in exchange for 00:01:26.820 --> 00:01:29.055 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% behavioral data from users. 00:01:29.122 --> 00:01:32.659 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% Her talk at the Milkin Global Conference was a 00:01:32.725 --> 00:01:33.326 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% big hit. 00:01:33.393 --> 00:01:36.529 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% I had the great pleasure of meeting her in person 00:01:36.596 --> 00:01:39.732 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% earlier this year, in Los Angeles, and I'm just 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:42.769 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% delighted that she agreed to come and join us. 00:01:42.836 --> 00:01:44.704 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Earlier this year she released her latest book, 00:01:44.771 --> 00:01:48.842 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% entitled: The Age of Surveillance Capitalism 00:01:48.908 --> 00:01:56.082 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% the Flight -- The Fight For a Human Future At the 00:01:56.149 --> 00:01:58.151 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% New Frontier of Power. 00:01:58.218 --> 00:02:01.788 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% If you don't have a copy, I don't think I can 00:02:01.855 --> 00:02:07.660 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% endorse the book, but I -- I do recommend you coming 00:02:07.727 --> 00:02:08.628 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:35% -- (Laughter). 00:02:08.695 --> 00:02:10.230 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% Shut the cameras off. 00:02:10.296 --> 00:02:14.367 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Nina, our ethics officer counsel is sitting right 00:02:14.434 --> 00:02:20.540 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% here, so I just want to be very clear about what I 00:02:20.607 --> 00:02:21.774 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% can say. 00:02:21.841 --> 00:02:24.310 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% She argued that the new surveillance capitalism 00:02:24.377 --> 00:02:27.046 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% represents a potentially final phase in the 00:02:27.113 --> 00:02:28.615 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% evolution of capitalism. 00:02:28.681 --> 00:02:32.051 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% The precursor to this book was an article entitled: 00:02:32.118 --> 00:02:35.855 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% Big Other Surveillance Capitalism and the 00:02:35.922 --> 00:02:39.359 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Prospects of an Information Civilization, 00:02:39.425 --> 00:02:42.362 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% which won the best paper award at a 2016 00:02:42.428 --> 00:02:45.565 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% international conference on information systems 00:02:45.632 --> 00:02:46.833 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% scholars. 00:02:46.900 --> 00:02:49.536 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Professor Zuboff is also well known for her first 00:02:49.602 --> 00:02:53.072 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% book, The Age of the Smart Machine, the Future of 00:02:53.139 --> 00:02:56.142 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Work and Power, which was the first book of its kind 00:02:56.209 --> 00:03:01.281 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% to track how then nascent digital technology changed 00:03:01.347 --> 00:03:04.717 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% the workplace, both for management and rank and 00:03:04.784 --> 00:03:05.685 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% file employees. 00:03:07.720 --> 00:03:09.822 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Professor Zuboff has been featured in a number of 00:03:09.889 --> 00:03:13.059 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% news publications and has been showcased on CNBC. 00:03:13.126 --> 00:03:14.694 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% She earned her Ph.D. 00:03:14.761 --> 00:03:17.897 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% from Harvard University and her bachelor's in 00:03:17.964 --> 00:03:20.667 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% philosophy from the University of Chicago. 00:03:20.733 --> 00:03:23.603 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% We invited Professor Zuboff to share her 00:03:23.670 --> 00:03:26.639 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% perspectives with us and I'm sure it will be 00:03:26.706 --> 00:03:28.174 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% fascinating. 00:03:28.241 --> 00:03:31.711 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% In the same spirit of our Jackson Nash address 00:03:31.778 --> 00:03:34.814 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% series, and the talk of Professor Feng Zhu, her 00:03:34.881 --> 00:03:38.551 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% colleague from Harvard, earlier this year, this 00:03:38.618 --> 00:03:41.688 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% past August, we hope that her remarks cause us to 00:03:41.754 --> 00:03:45.358 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% think critically about our economic framework for 00:03:45.425 --> 00:03:48.628 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% understanding competition, digital markets, and our 00:03:48.695 --> 00:03:50.897 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% economic framework more generally. 00:03:50.964 --> 00:03:53.866 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% After her talk we'll open up for questions and after 00:03:53.933 --> 00:03:58.204 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% we conclude I hope that you will all join us for 00:03:58.271 --> 00:04:01.908 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% reception at the back of the auditorium right here. 00:04:01.975 --> 00:04:04.043 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So Professor Zuboff, welcome to the Department 00:04:04.110 --> 00:04:04.711 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:28% of Justice. 00:04:04.777 --> 00:04:06.579 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% It's my pleasure to welcome you here. 00:04:06.646 --> 00:04:07.914 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% Thank you so much. 00:04:07.981 --> 00:04:09.916 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:58% I can get up there now. 00:04:09.983 --> 00:04:14.520 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% [APPLAUSE] 00:04:14.587 --> 00:04:16.923 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% So I just want to get our timing 00:04:16.990 --> 00:04:19.359 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% straight, since we're starting a half hour late, 00:04:19.425 --> 00:04:22.729 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% how long do we have, can somebody tell me? 00:04:22.795 --> 00:04:25.431 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% 45 minutes to an hour is fine. 00:04:25.498 --> 00:04:26.099 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:04:26.165 --> 00:04:28.434 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% For our talking and Q and A? 00:04:28.501 --> 00:04:29.102 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Yeah. 00:04:29.168 --> 00:04:30.403 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:04:30.470 --> 00:04:31.070 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right. 00:04:31.137 --> 00:04:33.906 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% 45 minutes to an hour. 00:04:33.973 --> 00:04:34.607 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:04:34.674 --> 00:04:35.274 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Good. 00:04:35.341 --> 00:04:35.942 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% That's great. 00:04:36.009 --> 00:04:40.980 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So -- Or as much time as you think we would need to 00:04:41.047 --> 00:04:41.814 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% be educated. 00:04:41.881 --> 00:04:42.615 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right. 00:04:42.682 --> 00:04:45.918 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% We'll be here for awhile folks, don't worry. 00:04:45.985 --> 00:04:47.820 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And then there's going to be a quiz, so everybody's 00:04:47.887 --> 00:04:48.888 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% got to listen to me. 00:04:48.955 --> 00:04:50.223 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:04:50.289 --> 00:04:55.028 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So let it be known that not even the seasons first 00:04:55.094 --> 00:04:58.297 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% nor'easter would prevent me from getting here 00:04:58.364 --> 00:04:58.998 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:15% today. 00:04:59.065 --> 00:05:01.167 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% I don't know if Denise is around, but thanks to 00:05:01.234 --> 00:05:05.772 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Denise Adams I think -- I think we tried like, 500 00:05:05.838 --> 00:05:08.241 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% dates or something before we were able to do this, 00:05:08.307 --> 00:05:10.343 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% and I really didn't want to miss the day. 00:05:10.410 --> 00:05:12.845 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So I'm a little bit the worst for wear, but here I 00:05:12.912 --> 00:05:17.483 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% am, and it's -- it's such an honor to be here with you. 00:05:17.550 --> 00:05:21.554 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% You know, this is the paperback version of my 00:05:21.621 --> 00:05:25.625 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% book, which is just out in London in paperbacks, just 00:05:25.692 --> 00:05:29.328 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% out in London, has just been, but you know the 00:05:29.395 --> 00:05:36.869 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% real version is really thick, big, and usually 00:05:36.936 --> 00:05:41.374 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% when I have events and talk about the book 00:05:41.441 --> 00:05:44.844 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% I start over here and I end over here, and in a 00:05:44.911 --> 00:05:48.448 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% discussion about law and regulation and, you know, 00:05:48.514 --> 00:05:50.817 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% what can we do, and is it too late and all that. 00:05:50.883 --> 00:05:53.686 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% But thinking about what we were going to do this 00:05:53.753 --> 00:05:56.189 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% afternoon I decided that I'm going to start over 00:05:56.255 --> 00:05:59.459 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% here and then I'm going to work my way back to the 00:05:59.525 --> 00:06:04.130 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% beginning and follow through because finally 00:06:04.197 --> 00:06:08.067 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:70% talking to some people who can do something about this. 00:06:08.134 --> 00:06:11.738 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So I'm very committed to that, and very excited 00:06:11.804 --> 00:06:15.742 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% about that, and have -- have a lot of ideas about 00:06:15.808 --> 00:06:20.012 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% it, which probably are going to be different from 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:22.248 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% -- from your ideas. 00:06:22.315 --> 00:06:28.821 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And so what I'm hoping is, I'll unspool my -- my 00:06:28.888 --> 00:06:33.526 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% framework and thinking about surveillance 00:06:33.593 --> 00:06:37.430 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% capitalism, and then in the Q and A I'm imagining 00:06:37.497 --> 00:06:40.666 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% that is the time when you'll come from your 00:06:40.733 --> 00:06:43.936 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% spaces and I'll come from mine and we'll use that 00:06:44.003 --> 00:06:46.606 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Q and A to sort of build those bridges and figure 00:06:46.672 --> 00:06:50.309 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% out how our ideas can inform one another. 00:06:50.376 --> 00:06:53.813 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So that's what -- that's what I'm after today. 00:06:53.880 --> 00:06:58.684 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% So I'm going to begin with my conclusion: 00:06:58.751 --> 00:07:01.754 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% The internet is now owned and operated by what I call 00:07:01.821 --> 00:07:04.123 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% surveillance capitalism. 00:07:04.190 --> 00:07:08.461 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% That is to say, the internet is owned and 00:07:08.528 --> 00:07:12.298 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% operated by private surveillance capital. 00:07:12.365 --> 00:07:13.533 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% That's where we are right now. 00:07:13.599 --> 00:07:18.137 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So it's kind of a crazy thing, because it wasn't 00:07:18.204 --> 00:07:23.743 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% that long ago, 20 years, 15 years, even 10 years, 00:07:23.810 --> 00:07:26.212 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% plenty of people still thinking, you know, 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:29.582 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:75% the internet was the answer to democratization, to voice, 00:07:29.649 --> 00:07:33.920 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% to individual empowerment, and a lot of what I've 00:07:33.986 --> 00:07:37.557 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% done over the many years of working on this project 00:07:37.623 --> 00:07:41.928 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% is to understand the way in which that vision and 00:07:41.994 --> 00:07:45.264 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% that dream -- dream morphed into something 00:07:45.331 --> 00:07:49.001 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% very, very different, surveillance capitalism, 00:07:49.068 --> 00:07:51.938 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% the unique form of power that it produces, its 00:07:52.004 --> 00:07:59.345 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% vision for society, for human nature and the 00:07:59.412 --> 00:08:03.549 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% consequences of all of that for some very basic 00:08:03.616 --> 00:08:09.322 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:58% things, like democracy. 00:08:09.388 --> 00:08:14.627 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So it's interesting to me that despite the fact that 00:08:14.694 --> 00:08:18.497 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% we are a nation of laws, and in these spaces we 00:08:18.564 --> 00:08:24.937 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% have laws on privacy and we have antitrust laws, 00:08:25.004 --> 00:08:30.209 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% which you specialize in, surveillance capitalism 00:08:30.276 --> 00:08:34.447 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% rooted and flourished over the last 20 years, largely 00:08:34.513 --> 00:08:40.219 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% unimpeded by law, and that becomes a big question for 00:08:40.286 --> 00:08:45.157 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% us to try and understand how was that able to occur. 00:08:47.827 --> 00:08:51.230 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% It -- it flowed into blank spaces, you know, the -- 00:08:51.297 --> 00:08:53.366 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% some of the pioneers of surveillance capitalism 00:08:53.432 --> 00:08:56.168 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% celebrated the ways in which the internet was 00:08:56.235 --> 00:08:58.704 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% sort of the last ungoverned space, as they 00:08:58.771 --> 00:09:06.345 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% called it, and so it -- it -- it moved like a -- like 00:09:06.412 --> 00:09:10.316 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% a sludge into these spaces that were essentially 00:09:10.383 --> 00:09:15.421 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% lawless, free of regulation, free of 00:09:15.488 --> 00:09:20.493 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% democratic governance, and the rapid growth was 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:23.663 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% facilitated by a whole slew of things. 00:09:23.729 --> 00:09:28.200 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% There's 16 reasons that I examine in depth, not 00:09:28.267 --> 00:09:31.504 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% going to go into all 16 of them right now, but -- or 00:09:31.570 --> 00:09:35.107 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% this afternoon, for that matter -- but it's 00:09:35.174 --> 00:09:41.280 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% important to note this rapid growth was enabled 00:09:41.347 --> 00:09:45.418 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% by the unprecedented character of the 00:09:45.484 --> 00:09:50.589 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% mechanisms and methods that it invented and their 00:09:50.656 --> 00:09:53.893 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% inherent indecipherability. 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:57.863 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And that is exemplified in technical systems and 00:09:57.930 --> 00:10:02.835 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% public rhetoric carefully, intentionally designed to 00:10:02.902 --> 00:10:08.908 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% camouflage, misdirect, confuse, bamboozle, and 00:10:08.975 --> 00:10:14.580 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% generally engineer the ignorance of populations 00:10:14.647 --> 00:10:16.749 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% and our lawmakers. 00:10:16.816 --> 00:10:19.952 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And this has been a pretty successful undertaking. 00:10:20.019 --> 00:10:27.226 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So anybody familiar with Tom McGraw's book The 00:10:27.293 --> 00:10:30.196 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% Profits of Regulation? 00:10:30.262 --> 00:10:32.064 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% You know, he wrote it a little bit ago, but it won 00:10:32.131 --> 00:10:36.102 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% a Pulitzer prize, and it is a very wise, insightful 00:10:36.168 --> 00:10:36.769 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% history. 00:10:36.836 --> 00:10:42.041 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% A historian of business, at Harvard, and this is a 00:10:42.108 --> 00:10:44.744 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% book that bears you looking at it, unlike my 00:10:44.810 --> 00:10:49.615 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% book it's a fairly slender book, but it really bears 00:10:49.682 --> 00:10:50.649 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% your taking a look. 00:10:50.716 --> 00:10:54.286 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So I wanted to bring back some -- some of the key 00:10:54.353 --> 00:10:57.857 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% things that he wrote about, and one is that, 00:10:57.923 --> 00:11:00.259 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% you know, he looked over the arc of the 20th 00:11:00.326 --> 00:11:03.863 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% century, US, US 20th century, and he wrote 00:11:03.929 --> 00:11:07.199 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% about these different regulatory regimes that 00:11:07.266 --> 00:11:12.638 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% have arced across time, beginning in the 1870s, 00:11:12.705 --> 00:11:15.508 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% the early period of industrialization, 00:11:15.574 --> 00:11:19.545 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% the early 20th century, especially 1900, 1916, 00:11:19.612 --> 00:11:23.416 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% the 1930s, of course, the era of the new deal, the 1970s 00:11:23.482 --> 00:11:27.853 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% and 80s, `80s, accompanying that new 00:11:27.920 --> 00:11:29.455 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% phase of industrialization. 00:11:29.522 --> 00:11:34.326 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% But the key point he made was that the people who 00:11:34.393 --> 00:11:38.931 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% forged these regulatory visions, and implemented 00:11:38.998 --> 00:11:42.368 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% these regimes, were different in each one of 00:11:42.435 --> 00:11:45.538 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% these eras, beginning early century with 00:11:45.604 --> 00:11:48.841 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% the muckrakers and the progressives, mid-century 00:11:48.908 --> 00:11:51.844 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% it was really the lawyers who were in charge, and 00:11:51.911 --> 00:11:55.848 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% only late century was it the economists, something 00:11:55.915 --> 00:12:00.086 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% that he famously called: "The Economists' Hour." 00:12:00.152 --> 00:12:06.258 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% And of course he anticipated, Tom was 00:12:06.325 --> 00:12:09.462 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% writing in the -- in the `80s, he anticipated that 00:12:09.528 --> 00:12:15.034 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% the economists' hour would certainly end, and 00:12:15.101 --> 00:12:16.902 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% wondered what would come next. 00:12:16.969 --> 00:12:20.473 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And in wondering about that he noted that across 00:12:20.539 --> 00:12:23.509 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% this long arc of regulation in the 20th 00:12:23.576 --> 00:12:29.515 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% century that concerns for justice and fairness, 00:12:29.582 --> 00:12:32.618 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% he wrote, generally overshadowed the more 00:12:32.685 --> 00:12:35.855 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% narrow aims of economic growth. 00:12:35.921 --> 00:12:38.591 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And he thought that that was going to be -- that 00:12:38.657 --> 00:12:43.362 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% was going to be some kind of hint as to what was 00:12:43.429 --> 00:12:46.699 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% going to come after the economists' hour, 00:12:46.765 --> 00:12:52.071 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% a doubling back to -- to these -- to this emphasis 00:12:52.138 --> 00:12:54.306 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% on fairness and justice. 00:12:54.373 --> 00:12:58.777 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And, of course, in my view, this next regulatory 00:12:58.844 --> 00:13:03.449 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% era that I think, you know, many people believe 00:13:03.516 --> 00:13:08.587 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% we're at least on the cusp of right now, this next 00:13:08.654 --> 00:13:14.093 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% regulatory era is going to be championed by those who 00:13:14.160 --> 00:13:18.097 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% care about democracy and who are deeply concerned 00:13:18.164 --> 00:13:22.268 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% about the threats that surveillance capitalism 00:13:22.334 --> 00:13:23.469 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% poses for democracy. 00:13:23.536 --> 00:13:29.642 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So McGraw ends with a very important warning, and a 00:13:29.708 --> 00:13:34.213 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% very important warning for all of us, and that is: 00:13:34.280 --> 00:13:37.383 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% He says that looking back over this history 00:13:37.449 --> 00:13:40.719 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% regulators failed. 00:13:40.786 --> 00:13:46.559 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% They failed when this one criteria was -- one 00:13:46.625 --> 00:13:51.397 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% criterion was fulfilled, and that is when, quote, 00:13:51.463 --> 00:13:55.834 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% they were unable to frame strategies appropriate to 00:13:55.901 --> 00:14:00.739 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% the particular industries they were regulating. 00:14:00.806 --> 00:14:05.878 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So this -- this is a big deal for me, because 00:14:05.945 --> 00:14:09.548 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% I spent a decade of my life on this book, I spent 00:14:09.615 --> 00:14:12.117 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% about seven years in my pajamas just writing 00:14:12.184 --> 00:14:16.088 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% what's in between these two covers, and I did it 00:14:16.155 --> 00:14:21.660 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% because I believed that this new economic logic 00:14:21.727 --> 00:14:26.232 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% needed to be named; and that naming was a prelude 00:14:26.298 --> 00:14:29.902 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% to taming; and that without a careful 00:14:29.969 --> 00:14:32.705 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% understanding of its unprecedented mechanisms 00:14:32.771 --> 00:14:37.710 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% and methods we would be shadow boxing in -- in the 00:14:37.776 --> 00:14:40.613 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% 20th century when we needed to move into the 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:43.449 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% digital century and understand the 00:14:43.515 --> 00:14:44.883 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:35% unprecedented. 00:14:44.950 --> 00:14:49.488 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So that was a lot of my motivation, and certainly 00:14:49.555 --> 00:14:53.092 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% key motivation for my being here today. 00:14:53.158 --> 00:14:56.762 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% When you understand the novel economic logic of 00:14:56.829 --> 00:15:00.899 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% surveillance capitalism essentially every daily 00:15:00.966 --> 00:15:03.269 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% atrocity, you know, you open up the paper every 00:15:03.335 --> 00:15:05.237 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% day, I always tell my students, you can open up 00:15:05.304 --> 00:15:08.841 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% the paper any day and you can basically recapitulate 00:15:08.907 --> 00:15:11.110 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% every argument in this book, right? 00:15:11.176 --> 00:15:12.478 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% Which gives its face validity. 00:15:12.544 --> 00:15:15.347 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% But this stuff keeps happening. 00:15:15.414 --> 00:15:17.449 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% When you understand the framework, when you 00:15:17.516 --> 00:15:20.319 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% understand the economic imperatives, each daily 00:15:20.386 --> 00:15:23.255 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% atrocity is extremely both predictable and 00:15:23.322 --> 00:15:24.156 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% understandable. 00:15:24.223 --> 00:15:31.463 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So -- so the bottom line for me is that it says to 00:15:31.530 --> 00:15:35.000 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% me that this is a moment when we need to look 00:15:35.067 --> 00:15:37.102 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:65% beyond existing paradigms. 00:15:37.169 --> 00:15:39.004 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% We're going to build on the shoulders, of course, 00:15:39.071 --> 00:15:43.676 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% of what has come before, but we are going to need 00:15:43.742 --> 00:15:48.681 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% 21st century digital century paradigms, laws, 00:15:48.747 --> 00:15:54.119 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% regulatory regimes if we are going to target, 00:15:54.186 --> 00:15:59.491 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% interrupt, outlaw this distinctly 21st century -- 00:15:59.558 --> 00:16:05.831 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% this distinctly 21st century born digital novel 00:16:05.898 --> 00:16:07.399 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% economic logic. 00:16:07.466 --> 00:16:08.067 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right. 00:16:08.133 --> 00:16:09.802 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% So I want to talk about what surveillance 00:16:09.868 --> 00:16:13.038 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% capitalism is, but before I do that I want to talk a 00:16:13.105 --> 00:16:16.909 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% little bit about what it is not, because there's a 00:16:16.975 --> 00:16:19.478 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% lot of confusion about that, you know, category 00:16:19.545 --> 00:16:21.313 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% errors, when you say something, when you think 00:16:21.380 --> 00:16:23.916 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% something is one thing but it's actually not, it's 00:16:23.982 --> 00:16:24.917 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:58% actually another thing. 00:16:24.983 --> 00:16:27.720 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% So what are some of the key category errors? 00:16:27.786 --> 00:16:31.724 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Well, part of the public rhetoric of surveillance 00:16:31.790 --> 00:16:36.862 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% capitalism has been to get us to believe that its 00:16:36.929 --> 00:16:40.432 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% methods and mechanisms are the inevitable 00:16:40.499 --> 00:16:42.534 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% consequences of digital technology. 00:16:42.601 --> 00:16:46.105 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% The surveillance capitalism is conflated 00:16:46.171 --> 00:16:48.474 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:43% with the digital. 00:16:48.540 --> 00:16:52.378 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% This is simply false. 00:16:52.444 --> 00:16:55.681 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% I write about many examples, examples of 00:16:55.748 --> 00:17:00.152 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% telemedicine, examples of the Smart home, examples 00:17:00.219 --> 00:17:04.623 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% that were designed by cutting edge digital 00:17:04.690 --> 00:17:09.094 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% scientists, engineers, in, for example, 1999, 2000, 00:17:09.161 --> 00:17:12.164 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% 2001, 2002, 2003, no one even knew about 00:17:12.231 --> 00:17:15.067 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% surveillance capitalism until around 2004. 00:17:15.134 --> 00:17:18.137 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And when you look at what their plans were back then 00:17:18.203 --> 00:17:20.506 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% they're completely different from anything we 00:17:20.572 --> 00:17:21.173 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% have now. 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:24.476 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% I want to give you one very, very quick example, 00:17:24.543 --> 00:17:28.013 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% this project that came out of the top folks at 00:17:28.080 --> 00:17:30.115 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Georgia Tech, they called it the aware home, the 00:17:30.182 --> 00:17:31.350 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% year is 2000. 00:17:33.685 --> 00:17:35.954 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So very quickly, there are digital devices in the 00:17:36.021 --> 00:17:38.657 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% walls, there are people that live in the house, 00:17:38.724 --> 00:17:41.660 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% the digital devices are spitting out information, 00:17:41.727 --> 00:17:46.031 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% the information is going to one node and one node 00:17:46.098 --> 00:17:50.402 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% only, that's a wearable little doodad, not unlike 00:17:50.469 --> 00:17:53.539 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% this, that the occupants of the house are wearing 00:17:53.605 --> 00:17:55.007 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% or having with them. 00:17:55.073 --> 00:17:57.309 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% So when they drew the designs, when they drew 00:17:57.376 --> 00:17:59.745 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% the schematics, it's a closed loop. 00:17:59.812 --> 00:18:01.947 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:35% The device is the occupants. 00:18:02.014 --> 00:18:04.049 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And the scientists wrote about this, and they said, 00:18:04.116 --> 00:18:06.251 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% look, this is very intimate data. 00:18:06.318 --> 00:18:10.322 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:70% Our systems have to maintain privacy above all else. 00:18:10.389 --> 00:18:13.158 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% That's the way they looked at it, even though they 00:18:13.225 --> 00:18:15.160 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% had the same objectives for the Smart home that we 00:18:15.227 --> 00:18:18.297 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% have today, elders being able to age in place, 00:18:18.363 --> 00:18:23.001 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% security, energy efficiency, feedback that 00:18:23.068 --> 00:18:24.670 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% can improve quality of life and so forth. 00:18:24.736 --> 00:18:26.104 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:18:26.171 --> 00:18:28.640 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% That was what year? 00:18:28.707 --> 00:18:29.975 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% 2000. 00:18:30.042 --> 00:18:33.579 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% Now we fast forward to 2017, two scholars, 00:18:33.645 --> 00:18:37.449 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% University of London, doing an analysis of one 00:18:37.516 --> 00:18:39.451 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% Nest thermostat. 00:18:39.518 --> 00:18:41.687 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% You know what Nest is, and you know that it's now 00:18:41.753 --> 00:18:43.088 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% wholly absorbed into Google. 00:18:43.155 --> 00:18:44.990 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:63% So there is no more Nest. 00:18:45.057 --> 00:18:47.960 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% All right, one Nest thermostat, they concluded 00:18:48.026 --> 00:18:54.199 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% that any mildly vigilant consumer, who installs one 00:18:54.266 --> 00:19:01.240 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Nest thermostat should review a minimum of 1,000 00:19:01.306 --> 00:19:06.011 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% privacy contracts, because not only is the Nest 00:19:06.078 --> 00:19:08.313 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% aggregating data and sending it to all the 00:19:08.380 --> 00:19:12.618 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% usual suspects, mostly Google, mostly Facebook, 00:19:12.684 --> 00:19:18.557 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% some other big advertising groups in there, but also 00:19:18.624 --> 00:19:20.726 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% to a range of other third parties. 00:19:20.792 --> 00:19:22.427 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And those third parties are sending it to other 00:19:22.494 --> 00:19:24.696 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% third parties and other third parties -- you know 00:19:24.763 --> 00:19:26.164 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% this is infinite regress, right? 00:19:26.231 --> 00:19:27.633 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:28% It goes on. 00:19:27.699 --> 00:19:31.103 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And of course at each stage, starting with Nest, 00:19:31.169 --> 00:19:32.838 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% no one takes responsibility or 00:19:32.905 --> 00:19:35.240 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% accountability for what the other third parties 00:19:35.307 --> 00:19:36.642 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% are going to do with the data. 00:19:36.708 --> 00:19:38.443 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:63% So you're just out there. 00:19:38.510 --> 00:19:41.246 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And Nest says, look, we understand if you don't 00:19:41.313 --> 00:19:43.282 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% want to agree with this privacy policy. 00:19:43.348 --> 00:19:45.817 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% We just want you to be aware that if you don't 00:19:45.884 --> 00:19:48.787 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% agree we're not going to be able to upgrade the 00:19:48.854 --> 00:19:51.657 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% functionality of your thermostat, we won't be 00:19:51.723 --> 00:19:54.259 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% updating the software, so you're going to want to be 00:19:54.326 --> 00:19:58.764 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% on guard in case, you know, frozen pipes, smoke 00:19:58.830 --> 00:20:00.999 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% detector doesn't work, other things that could go 00:20:01.066 --> 00:20:03.368 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% awry if you don't agree. 00:20:03.435 --> 00:20:06.872 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So this is the world that we've moved from 2000, 00:20:06.939 --> 00:20:09.741 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% that's 17 years. 00:20:09.808 --> 00:20:12.578 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% So the question is, what happened? 00:20:12.644 --> 00:20:13.245 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% Digital. 00:20:13.312 --> 00:20:14.446 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% Digital. 00:20:14.513 --> 00:20:15.113 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:15% Right? 00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:17.049 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% So what happened in between? 00:20:17.115 --> 00:20:22.087 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% What happened in between is an economic logic, 00:20:22.154 --> 00:20:25.157 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% nothing to do with digital technology, an economic 00:20:25.223 --> 00:20:29.294 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% logic that essentially -- think of the Trojan horse 00:20:29.361 --> 00:20:32.931 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% analogy, essentially invaded the technology, 00:20:32.998 --> 00:20:38.036 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% hijacked the technology, the beast hiding in the 00:20:38.103 --> 00:20:40.405 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:65% belly of the Trojan horse. 00:20:40.472 --> 00:20:42.874 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% So that's where we are now. 00:20:42.941 --> 00:20:47.913 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:28% So -- okay. 00:20:47.980 --> 00:20:52.985 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% So bottom line, we can easily imagine digital 00:20:53.051 --> 00:20:55.520 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% technology without surveillance capitalism, 00:20:55.587 --> 00:20:59.858 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% impossible to do the reverse, impossible to do 00:20:59.925 --> 00:21:02.394 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% the reverse, can't image surveillance capital 00:21:02.461 --> 00:21:03.595 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% without the digital. 00:21:03.662 --> 00:21:04.262 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:21:04.329 --> 00:21:08.133 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Second category error, surveillance capitalism is 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:12.771 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% not a corporation or not a group of corporations. 00:21:12.838 --> 00:21:15.641 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% Invented by Google, migrated to Facebook, 00:21:15.707 --> 00:21:19.511 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% became the default logic of accumulation in the 00:21:19.578 --> 00:21:23.782 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% tech sector, now migrates through the normal economy 00:21:23.849 --> 00:21:28.754 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% in virtually every sector, insurance, retail, health, 00:21:28.820 --> 00:21:35.027 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% education, finance, every Smart product, every 00:21:35.093 --> 00:21:37.162 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% product called Smart, every service called 00:21:37.229 --> 00:21:41.333 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% personalized, now complex ecosystems of data 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:44.169 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% suppliers, market makers, and everything in between. 00:21:44.236 --> 00:21:48.640 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% You know about the CEO of the Ford Motor Company and 00:21:48.707 --> 00:21:50.676 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:65% his vision for Ford Motor. 00:21:50.742 --> 00:21:54.346 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% You know, people aren't buying cars the way they 00:21:54.413 --> 00:21:57.816 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% used to, and that's a worldwide phenomenon. 00:21:57.883 --> 00:22:01.353 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So what we would like is for the CEO of Ford Motor 00:22:01.420 --> 00:22:03.689 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% to do something that Henry Ford might have done a 00:22:03.755 --> 00:22:05.357 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% century ago. 00:22:05.424 --> 00:22:08.427 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Henry Ford was a terrible person, by the way, you 00:22:08.493 --> 00:22:11.663 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% know, nothing good to say about him except what he 00:22:11.730 --> 00:22:16.635 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% did as -- as an innovator in business. 00:22:16.702 --> 00:22:20.572 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% So -- so what we would like the CEO of Ford to 00:22:20.639 --> 00:22:22.874 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% say, you know what, we're never going to sell cars 00:22:22.941 --> 00:22:27.879 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% the way we used to, let's invent a car that doesn't 00:22:27.946 --> 00:22:29.915 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% burn any carbon. 00:22:29.981 --> 00:22:32.617 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And, you know, that's going to be the shot in 00:22:32.684 --> 00:22:34.720 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% the arm that the car industry all over the 00:22:34.786 --> 00:22:35.520 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:35% world can use. 00:22:35.587 --> 00:22:38.356 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% We're going to -- we're going to be rich again. 00:22:38.423 --> 00:22:40.292 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% Unfortunately, that's not what he's saying. 00:22:40.358 --> 00:22:43.128 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% What he's saying is: W want PEs like Google and 00:22:43.195 --> 00:22:44.763 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% Facebook. 00:22:44.830 --> 00:22:47.432 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So I've got a great idea, there are 100 million 00:22:47.499 --> 00:22:49.167 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:35% people driving Ford vehicles. 00:22:49.234 --> 00:22:52.404 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% Let's stream data from those drivers. 00:22:52.471 --> 00:22:54.639 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Let's combine it with the data, Ford credit, where 00:22:54.706 --> 00:22:57.275 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% we already know everything about you. 00:22:57.342 --> 00:23:00.512 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Now we're on a par with Google and Facebook, we've 00:23:00.579 --> 00:23:03.648 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% got all this data, what investor would not want to 00:23:03.715 --> 00:23:04.683 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% invest in us? 00:23:04.750 --> 00:23:05.350 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay? 00:23:05.417 --> 00:23:07.085 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% We're going to come back to that thought, 00:23:07.152 --> 00:23:09.988 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% so remember, what investor would not want to invest 00:23:10.055 --> 00:23:10.956 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:15% in us. 00:23:11.022 --> 00:23:12.157 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:23:12.224 --> 00:23:15.827 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So we can no longer just be talking about Facebook 00:23:15.894 --> 00:23:19.397 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% or Google or anything like that or Amazon or 00:23:19.464 --> 00:23:20.065 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% Microsoft. 00:23:20.132 --> 00:23:22.400 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% We're talking about a surveillance economy, now. 00:23:22.467 --> 00:23:25.403 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% This whole thing is shot through. 00:23:25.470 --> 00:23:28.039 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right. 00:23:28.106 --> 00:23:32.544 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Now, third category error, this is not a person. 00:23:32.611 --> 00:23:34.846 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% We can't reduce this to a person. 00:23:34.913 --> 00:23:37.849 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% Lot of shots at Mark Zuckerberg these days. 00:23:37.916 --> 00:23:41.386 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Every day that happens I guarantee you Larry Page 00:23:41.453 --> 00:23:44.156 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% and Sergey Brin are waking up 00:23:44.222 --> 00:23:46.925 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% very happy, Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella, 00:23:46.992 --> 00:23:49.995 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% this is all on Zuckerberg right now. 00:23:50.061 --> 00:23:50.729 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:35% This is great. 00:23:50.796 --> 00:23:54.032 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% But this is not about individuals. 00:23:54.099 --> 00:23:56.868 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% There are individuals who have too much power, and 00:23:56.935 --> 00:24:00.305 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% their power must be curbed, but at the end of 00:24:00.372 --> 00:24:03.909 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% the day even curbing the power of key individuals 00:24:03.975 --> 00:24:06.011 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% is not going to stop this economic logic. 00:24:06.077 --> 00:24:07.879 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% We're beyond that now. 00:24:07.946 --> 00:24:10.849 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So that's something to take into consideration. 00:24:10.916 --> 00:24:12.984 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:24:13.051 --> 00:24:15.187 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% So what is surveillance capitalism? 00:24:15.253 --> 00:24:22.027 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right. 00:24:22.093 --> 00:24:26.731 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% The year is 2000, Larry Page was sitting in a room 00:24:26.798 --> 00:24:28.567 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% with a bunch of other people, including the 00:24:28.633 --> 00:24:30.969 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% first ever brand manager of Google, and they were 00:24:31.036 --> 00:24:34.339 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% trying to say, okay, what is Google, what is Google, 00:24:34.406 --> 00:24:37.108 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% like they didn't know how to describe what business 00:24:37.175 --> 00:24:40.478 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% they were about to be in, and it was Larry Page that 00:24:40.545 --> 00:24:43.648 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% early who said, if we did have a category it would 00:24:43.715 --> 00:24:45.750 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% be personal information. 00:24:45.817 --> 00:24:49.020 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% People will generate enormous amounts of data, 00:24:49.087 --> 00:24:50.922 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% everything you've ever heard or seen or 00:24:50.989 --> 00:24:53.325 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% experienced will become searchable. 00:24:53.391 --> 00:24:56.027 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% Your whole life will be searchable. 00:24:56.094 --> 00:24:59.497 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So this was an idea that already existed in the 00:24:59.564 --> 00:25:05.070 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% year 2000 and Page's vision perfectly reflects 00:25:05.136 --> 00:25:06.938 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:65% the history of capitalism. 00:25:07.005 --> 00:25:09.207 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% So for a long time, you know, people who write 00:25:09.274 --> 00:25:14.312 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% about capitalism, ideas that begin with me, have 00:25:14.379 --> 00:25:16.882 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% talked about this -- this sort of foundational 00:25:16.948 --> 00:25:21.653 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% pattern, goes like this, capitalism evolves and 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:25.090 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% grows by claiming things that live outside the 00:25:25.156 --> 00:25:27.759 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% market dynamic and bringing them into the 00:25:27.826 --> 00:25:31.096 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% market dynamic, turning them into commodities that 00:25:31.162 --> 00:25:33.365 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% can be sold and purchased, right? 00:25:33.431 --> 00:25:35.667 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% So you're familiar with that, like industrial 00:25:35.734 --> 00:25:38.403 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% capitalism claims nature for the market dynamic, 00:25:38.470 --> 00:25:40.405 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% turns it into land and real estate that can be 00:25:40.472 --> 00:25:41.606 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% sold and purchased. 00:25:41.673 --> 00:25:43.608 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% I don't have to give you a lot of examples of that, 00:25:43.675 --> 00:25:44.276 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:15% right? 00:25:44.342 --> 00:25:47.679 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% So surveillance capitalism, as we will 00:25:47.746 --> 00:25:50.682 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% see, diverges fundamentally from the 00:25:50.749 --> 00:25:52.951 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% history of capitalism in many, many ways, except 00:25:53.018 --> 00:25:56.721 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% this one, because it does exactly the same thing, 00:25:56.788 --> 00:25:59.291 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% it claims something from outside the market, brings 00:25:59.357 --> 00:26:02.260 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% it into the market to make it a commodity, but in 00:26:02.327 --> 00:26:07.265 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% this case with a dark and unexpected twist, because 00:26:07.332 --> 00:26:12.437 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% what it claims is private human experience. 00:26:12.504 --> 00:26:15.674 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Private human experience, going right back to that 00:26:15.740 --> 00:26:23.648 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% year 2000, was understood to be the last virgin wood. 00:26:23.715 --> 00:26:25.750 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% Where do we look for new sources of 00:26:25.817 --> 00:26:29.854 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% commoditization, private human experience? 00:26:29.921 --> 00:26:32.590 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% So this is -- this is the birth. 00:26:32.657 --> 00:26:35.894 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So private human experience is claimed as 00:26:35.961 --> 00:26:40.865 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% free, raw material for new processes of production 00:26:40.932 --> 00:26:41.533 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% and sales. 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:45.437 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So what happens is private human experience is 00:26:45.503 --> 00:26:50.575 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% unilaterally taken for a process that people call 00:26:50.642 --> 00:26:54.079 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% datafication, taken and converted, transformed 00:26:54.145 --> 00:26:56.448 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% into behavioral data. 00:26:56.514 --> 00:26:59.050 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Some of these behavioral data, of course, used for 00:26:59.117 --> 00:27:00.552 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% product and service and improvement. 00:27:00.618 --> 00:27:03.655 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% We saw that a lot at the beginning of Google. 00:27:03.722 --> 00:27:07.926 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% But what happened at Google was -- well, I can 00:27:07.993 --> 00:27:08.727 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% come back to that in a minute. 00:27:08.793 --> 00:27:10.695 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% Let me give you the overview first. 00:27:10.762 --> 00:27:11.363 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right. 00:27:11.429 --> 00:27:14.866 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So we're taking our human experience, making it into 00:27:14.933 --> 00:27:19.204 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% behavioral data, using some of it for 00:27:19.270 --> 00:27:22.907 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% improvement, but discovering that much more 00:27:22.974 --> 00:27:28.079 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% data than what we need for improvement is available. 00:27:28.146 --> 00:27:31.816 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And these data are valued for their rich, predictive 00:27:31.883 --> 00:27:33.184 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% signals. 00:27:33.251 --> 00:27:35.587 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% This is more than what is needed for product and 00:27:35.653 --> 00:27:36.388 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% service improvement. 00:27:36.454 --> 00:27:39.591 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% And I call this behavioral surplus. 00:27:39.657 --> 00:27:44.929 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:75% These behavioral surplus flows are hunted and captured. 00:27:44.996 --> 00:27:48.600 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Some of them come out of, you know, what we -- how 00:27:48.666 --> 00:27:52.303 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% we search and how we browse and what we post, 00:27:52.370 --> 00:27:56.207 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% but most of it comes from stuff that is taken from 00:27:56.274 --> 00:27:59.811 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% us, that we're not even aware of, for example, on 00:27:59.878 --> 00:28:04.449 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% a Facebook post do you use exclamation points or 00:28:04.516 --> 00:28:06.518 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:35% bullet points? 00:28:06.584 --> 00:28:08.987 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% The level of saturation in the photos that you 00:28:09.054 --> 00:28:11.389 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:43% post, what color. 00:28:11.456 --> 00:28:14.993 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% These are rich, predictive signals that are lifted 00:28:15.060 --> 00:28:19.597 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% from what we voluntarily give, but also are hunted 00:28:19.664 --> 00:28:23.535 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% and captured in the online and the offline world, 00:28:23.601 --> 00:28:27.238 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% without our knowledge, without our awareness, and 00:28:27.305 --> 00:28:30.141 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% therefore, most certainly, without our consent. 00:28:30.208 --> 00:28:33.311 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% This is why, for example, the tech companies fought 00:28:33.378 --> 00:28:37.515 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% for the right to take our faces when we are in 00:28:37.582 --> 00:28:41.352 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% public without having to inform us and, therefore, 00:28:41.419 --> 00:28:45.757 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% without having to acquire our consent, for example. 00:28:45.824 --> 00:28:52.230 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So there's a broad-based activity that's moving in 00:28:52.297 --> 00:28:55.066 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% many directions, hunting and capturing behavioral 00:28:55.133 --> 00:29:01.306 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% surplus, these data flows are essentially, like, 00:29:01.372 --> 00:29:04.142 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% every -- every one of these data flows 00:29:04.209 --> 00:29:06.878 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% represents a supply chain interface. 00:29:06.945 --> 00:29:12.484 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So picture, now, complex webs, pipes, supply chains 00:29:12.550 --> 00:29:14.519 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% that are out, you know, they're out there on the 00:29:14.586 --> 00:29:17.989 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% street, grabbing your face, they're online, 00:29:18.056 --> 00:29:21.826 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% taking signals from what's online, they're looking at 00:29:21.893 --> 00:29:24.262 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% your posture as you walk down the street, the slope 00:29:24.329 --> 00:29:27.198 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% of your shoulders, for example, and your gait. 00:29:27.265 --> 00:29:30.135 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% They're picking up the muscles in your face in 00:29:30.201 --> 00:29:34.172 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% order to translate that into emotional analysis 00:29:34.239 --> 00:29:37.308 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% because emotions turn out to be excellent predictors 00:29:37.375 --> 00:29:38.676 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% of behavior. 00:29:38.743 --> 00:29:39.344 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right. 00:29:39.410 --> 00:29:41.846 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So all of this is converging, finally, into 00:29:41.913 --> 00:29:44.983 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% pipes that are bringing it into a new kind of 00:29:45.049 --> 00:29:49.120 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% factory, a 21st century factory that we call 00:29:49.187 --> 00:29:52.123 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% machine intelligence, artificial intelligence. 00:29:52.190 --> 00:29:55.426 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% And like all factories this factory produces 00:29:55.493 --> 00:29:56.961 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% products. 00:29:57.028 --> 00:29:59.164 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% But these products specifically are 00:29:59.230 --> 00:30:02.500 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% predictions of human behavior. 00:30:02.567 --> 00:30:05.170 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% They are prediction products. 00:30:05.236 --> 00:30:10.208 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So probably many of you saw this, about a year ago 00:30:10.275 --> 00:30:13.978 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% there was a leaked Facebook memo that gave us 00:30:14.045 --> 00:30:20.418 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% some insight into this -- this central manufacturing 00:30:20.485 --> 00:30:23.788 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% operation, this -- the heart of its factory, 00:30:23.855 --> 00:30:25.890 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% they call it the AI hub. 00:30:25.957 --> 00:30:29.460 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And that glimpse, among many interesting things 00:30:29.527 --> 00:30:33.164 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% revealed in the memo, we see it describing the fact 00:30:33.231 --> 00:30:38.536 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% that in the AI hub it is now ingesting, their term, 00:30:38.603 --> 00:30:43.208 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% trillions of data points every hour and producing 00:30:43.274 --> 00:30:46.744 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% six million predictions of human behavior, their 00:30:46.811 --> 00:30:48.913 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% language, per second. 00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:49.581 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right. 00:30:49.647 --> 00:30:52.150 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So that's -- that's the -- that's what's happening in 00:30:52.217 --> 00:30:53.218 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% the factory. 00:30:53.284 --> 00:30:55.820 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And where do these prediction products go? 00:30:55.887 --> 00:30:57.755 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% Obviously they're -- they're predicting our 00:30:57.822 --> 00:31:01.693 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% behavior, but they're not for us. 00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:06.297 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% They are extracted from our behavior, they're 00:31:06.364 --> 00:31:13.037 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% about us, but they're not actually being used on our 00:31:13.104 --> 00:31:13.705 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:18% behalf. 00:31:13.771 --> 00:31:16.674 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% They come from us, but they aren't being cycled 00:31:16.741 --> 00:31:18.109 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:15% to us. 00:31:18.176 --> 00:31:21.679 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Where they go now is to a new kind of marketplace, 00:31:21.746 --> 00:31:24.716 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% constituted by business customers who have a keen 00:31:24.782 --> 00:31:27.852 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% interest in knowing what we will do in the future. 00:31:27.919 --> 00:31:33.825 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So -- so essentially what's happening here is 00:31:33.891 --> 00:31:37.762 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% the game of these markets is to sell certainty. 00:31:37.829 --> 00:31:40.665 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And the way you sell certainty is to have the 00:31:40.732 --> 00:31:43.801 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% best predictions that come closer and closer to 00:31:43.868 --> 00:31:45.770 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:65% approximating observation. 00:31:45.837 --> 00:31:49.874 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And these predictions are now sold to business 00:31:49.941 --> 00:31:53.511 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% customers in a new kind of marketplace that trades 00:31:53.578 --> 00:31:57.148 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:35% exclusively in human futures. 00:31:57.215 --> 00:31:59.851 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So these are human futures markets in much the same 00:31:59.917 --> 00:32:02.587 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% way that we have markets that trade in pork belly 00:32:02.654 --> 00:32:06.057 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% futures or markets that trade in oil futures or 00:32:06.124 --> 00:32:11.229 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% markets that trade in wheat futures and so forth, 00:32:11.296 --> 00:32:12.430 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% commodity futures. 00:32:12.497 --> 00:32:15.933 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So now we're trading in futures of human behavior. 00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:23.808 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So -- so it maybe goes without saying, but I will 00:32:23.875 --> 00:32:27.045 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% just underscore it for a moment, these -- these 00:32:27.111 --> 00:32:32.250 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% activities that I've told you about, that 00:32:32.317 --> 00:32:34.919 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% I characterize as surveillance capitalism, 00:32:34.986 --> 00:32:37.121 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% the word surveillance in that phrase is not 00:32:37.188 --> 00:32:43.761 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% intended to be mellow dramatic or -- or -- or 00:32:43.828 --> 00:32:46.397 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% provocative, it's intended to be a practical 00:32:46.464 --> 00:32:50.234 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% description, because from the very beginning it was 00:32:50.301 --> 00:32:54.272 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% understood that when people are exposed to 00:32:54.339 --> 00:32:57.575 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% these kind of practices they actually reject them. 00:32:57.642 --> 00:32:59.277 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% They don't want any part of them. 00:32:59.344 --> 00:33:05.483 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And so the issue was, how do we hide these practices 00:33:05.550 --> 00:33:08.286 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% so people don't actually know that we're doing 00:33:08.353 --> 00:33:09.387 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% these things? 00:33:09.454 --> 00:33:11.656 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% They don't actually know that we're taking these 00:33:11.723 --> 00:33:14.125 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% data flows, they don't actually know that we're 00:33:14.192 --> 00:33:16.394 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% hunting these predictive signals. 00:33:16.461 --> 00:33:21.733 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And so from the beginning these -- there are very 00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:25.103 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% explicit discussions about the necessity of the 00:33:25.169 --> 00:33:28.439 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% one-way mirror, that we can see them but they 00:33:28.506 --> 00:33:32.643 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% can't see us, that we can hunt and capture but they 00:33:32.710 --> 00:33:34.479 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:63% never know we were there. 00:33:34.545 --> 00:33:36.781 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:35% We don't leave a footprint. 00:33:36.848 --> 00:33:39.117 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So the socializations with the one-way mirror with 00:33:39.183 --> 00:33:41.352 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% the implications for social hierarchy, the 00:33:41.419 --> 00:33:44.489 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% implications for inequalities of knowledge 00:33:44.555 --> 00:33:48.559 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% the inequalities of power were there from the start, 00:33:48.626 --> 00:33:50.762 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% ergo surveillance capitalism. 00:33:50.828 --> 00:33:52.663 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:33:52.730 --> 00:34:00.638 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So -- so I started to mention a moment ago that 00:34:00.705 --> 00:34:04.142 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% this was invented at Google. 00:34:04.208 --> 00:34:06.844 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And I'm not -- I'm not going to go into the whole 00:34:06.911 --> 00:34:10.448 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% -- all the details of the history here, but I want 00:34:10.515 --> 00:34:13.684 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% you to know -- Can you move back to the podium so 00:34:13.751 --> 00:34:16.587 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% they can here you on the far side? 00:34:16.654 --> 00:34:17.288 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:34:17.355 --> 00:34:17.955 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% I'm sorry. 00:34:18.022 --> 00:34:19.223 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% You couldn't hear me? 00:34:19.290 --> 00:34:20.124 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% You couldn't hear all of that? 00:34:20.191 --> 00:34:22.693 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% We can hear all of that. 00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:23.961 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% The far side. 00:34:24.028 --> 00:34:24.829 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% Oh, okay. 00:34:24.896 --> 00:34:25.663 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% I'm sorry. 00:34:25.730 --> 00:34:28.766 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% I usually never stand behind the podium. 00:34:28.833 --> 00:34:30.435 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% I'm blocked from you. 00:34:30.501 --> 00:34:34.472 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% But I will do that for the sake of the greater good, 00:34:34.539 --> 00:34:35.139 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% here. 00:34:35.206 --> 00:34:36.040 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:34:36.107 --> 00:34:38.810 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% So -- so -- but here's something that I really 00:34:38.876 --> 00:34:41.979 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% want you to know about this invention at Google. 00:34:42.046 --> 00:34:46.317 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So what happened at Google -- I'm just going to go 00:34:46.384 --> 00:34:50.054 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% over the top line so I can get to the punch line -- 00:34:50.121 --> 00:34:53.357 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% financial emergency, dot com bust, even their 00:34:53.424 --> 00:34:57.795 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% investors were threatening to pull out, so a state of 00:34:57.862 --> 00:35:01.699 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% emergency was declared, before that the Google 00:35:01.766 --> 00:35:04.368 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% founders rejected advertising as something 00:35:04.435 --> 00:35:06.437 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% that would disfigure the internet, disfigure the 00:35:06.504 --> 00:35:09.974 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% search engine, but now it came time to double down 00:35:10.041 --> 00:35:12.844 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% on advertising as a way out of financial 00:35:12.910 --> 00:35:14.645 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:70% emergency, stated exception. 00:35:14.712 --> 00:35:19.617 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And -- and that's when they discovered that they 00:35:19.684 --> 00:35:21.385 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% had all this collateral data, they called it 00:35:21.452 --> 00:35:24.188 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% digital exhaust, sitting around in their servers, 00:35:24.255 --> 00:35:25.656 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% that's when they discovered the rich 00:35:25.723 --> 00:35:28.459 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% predictive signals buried in these data, and even 00:35:28.526 --> 00:35:30.194 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% though they weren't using them for product 00:35:30.261 --> 00:35:32.997 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% improvement they one day discovered that they could 00:35:33.064 --> 00:35:35.233 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% use these data to create predictions of human 00:35:35.299 --> 00:35:35.900 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% behavior. 00:35:35.967 --> 00:35:37.335 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% What were those predictions called? 00:35:39.470 --> 00:35:41.172 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% Click through rates. 00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:44.408 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% First globally successful prediction product. 00:35:44.475 --> 00:35:46.677 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And what was the first globally successful human 00:35:46.744 --> 00:35:48.145 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% futures market? 00:35:48.212 --> 00:35:50.948 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% We call it online targeted advertising. 00:35:51.015 --> 00:35:55.319 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% But indeed, those were business customers who 00:35:55.386 --> 00:35:59.790 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% gave up the long traditions of brand values 00:35:59.857 --> 00:36:03.594 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% leading advertising placement in order to take 00:36:03.661 --> 00:36:07.064 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% the computation that would be spit out of Google's 00:36:07.131 --> 00:36:11.269 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% black box and would tell the advertiser where to 00:36:11.335 --> 00:36:12.703 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% place the ad. 00:36:12.770 --> 00:36:14.472 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% And the rest is history. 00:36:14.539 --> 00:36:16.941 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So what's interesting -- and here's the punch line 00:36:17.008 --> 00:36:19.744 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% that I want you to know -- is that between the year 00:36:19.810 --> 00:36:25.349 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% 2000 when -- when this first stirred, the problem 00:36:25.416 --> 00:36:28.219 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% first became clear and they first began working 00:36:28.286 --> 00:36:31.989 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% on it, and the year 2004, which was what, that was 00:36:32.056 --> 00:36:35.059 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% the year that Google IPO'd, first time they 00:36:35.126 --> 00:36:37.628 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% were public documents, and any numbers that anyone 00:36:37.695 --> 00:36:40.998 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% could look at to try and see what had happened in 00:36:41.065 --> 00:36:43.200 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% the interim years, because the investor didn't pull 00:36:43.267 --> 00:36:48.673 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% out, good reason why, between 2000 and 2004 00:36:48.739 --> 00:36:58.015 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% Google's revenue line increased by 3,590 percent. 00:36:58.082 --> 00:37:02.053 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% That is what I call the surveillance dividend. 00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:06.791 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Once Google achieved the surveillance dividend with 00:37:06.857 --> 00:37:13.331 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% this new logic it raised the bar for every 00:37:13.397 --> 00:37:16.567 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% business, first of all, in Silicon Valley, first of 00:37:16.634 --> 00:37:17.702 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% all, in the tech sector. 00:37:17.768 --> 00:37:23.674 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% What venture capitalist, what investor wants to 00:37:23.741 --> 00:37:26.277 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% invest in a business that's going to innovate 00:37:26.344 --> 00:37:29.714 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% the old and slow way, like inventing a car that 00:37:29.780 --> 00:37:32.617 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% doesn't burn carbon -- I told you I was going to 00:37:32.683 --> 00:37:35.753 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% come back to that -- when you can invest in a 00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:40.925 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% business that is producing a surveillance dividend, 00:37:40.992 --> 00:37:46.330 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% raising the bar and, in effect, disfiguring the 00:37:46.397 --> 00:37:52.603 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% competitive field for anyone who wants to truly 00:37:52.670 --> 00:37:55.272 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% innovate, who anyone who wants to innovate in the 00:37:55.339 --> 00:37:59.677 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% way we used to think about innovation, like, oh, 00:37:59.744 --> 00:38:06.784 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:80% I know how to solve this, this -- this competitive crisis. 00:38:06.851 --> 00:38:09.186 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% I'm going to create a product or service that is 00:38:09.253 --> 00:38:12.890 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% just better than anything that anyone has imagined 00:38:12.957 --> 00:38:17.061 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% heretofore, I'll call it the Model-T, for example, 00:38:17.128 --> 00:38:18.329 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:15% right? 00:38:18.396 --> 00:38:18.996 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:38:19.063 --> 00:38:24.068 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% So -- so now we're ready to talk about 00:38:27.938 --> 00:38:30.474 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% the competitive dynamics, here. 00:38:30.541 --> 00:38:34.111 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So a lot of what I spent my time doing is trying to 00:38:34.178 --> 00:38:38.049 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:75% understand the competitive dynamics of these new markets. 00:38:38.115 --> 00:38:41.786 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And it turns out when you deconstruct, reverse 00:38:41.852 --> 00:38:44.689 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% engineer the competitive dynamics of these markets 00:38:44.755 --> 00:38:51.662 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% you -- you -- you -- you uncover what the -- what 00:38:51.729 --> 00:38:56.300 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% are the iron laws, the economic imperatives that 00:38:56.367 --> 00:39:02.707 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% rule all practice in this domain. 00:39:02.773 --> 00:39:05.609 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And I'm summarizing them, at a high level, and it's 00:39:05.676 --> 00:39:06.977 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:35% pretty simple. 00:39:07.044 --> 00:39:09.980 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% The first one is -- and I know that you're familiar 00:39:10.047 --> 00:39:13.350 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% with this -- you're going to feed an AI to get great 00:39:13.417 --> 00:39:15.720 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% predictions, you need a lot of data, right? 00:39:15.786 --> 00:39:16.654 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% Everybody knows that. 00:39:16.721 --> 00:39:20.057 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So the first economic imperative is economies of 00:39:20.124 --> 00:39:26.363 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% scale in the production of behavioral surplus. 00:39:26.430 --> 00:39:29.166 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Getting these economies of scale into the pine lines, 00:39:29.233 --> 00:39:30.768 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% into the factories. 00:39:30.835 --> 00:39:33.437 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Then in the second phase of competitive intensity 00:39:33.504 --> 00:39:38.542 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% it becomes clear that volume is critical, but 00:39:38.609 --> 00:39:39.944 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% volume's not enough. 00:39:40.010 --> 00:39:42.113 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% We also need varieties of data. 00:39:42.179 --> 00:39:45.583 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Can't just be what people are doing online, 00:39:45.649 --> 00:39:47.918 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:80% what they're browsing, searching, what they're posting. 00:39:47.985 --> 00:39:49.086 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% We want their faces. 00:39:49.153 --> 00:39:50.888 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% We want their bodies. 00:39:50.955 --> 00:39:52.123 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:33% We want their bloodstreams. 00:39:52.189 --> 00:39:53.290 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:63% We want their brainwaves. 00:39:53.357 --> 00:39:55.893 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% We want their breakfast conversations. 00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:59.330 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:75% We want to know the decibel levels in the kitchen. 00:39:59.396 --> 00:40:02.700 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% We want to know the map of their living room. 00:40:02.767 --> 00:40:03.801 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% We want their car. 00:40:03.868 --> 00:40:05.669 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% We want their homes. 00:40:05.736 --> 00:40:10.107 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% So varieties of data, economies of scope. 00:40:10.174 --> 00:40:14.678 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% So now we've got scale and scope, competitive 00:40:14.745 --> 00:40:18.849 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% dynamism continues to intensify, and pretty soon 00:40:18.916 --> 00:40:21.852 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% surveillance capitalists learn that the very best 00:40:21.919 --> 00:40:25.990 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% predictive data comes from actually intervening in 00:40:26.056 --> 00:40:32.763 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% the state of play in order to actually touch human 00:40:32.830 --> 00:40:36.934 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% behavior, to intervene in human behavior, to coax, 00:40:37.001 --> 00:40:43.641 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% to herd, h-e-r-d, human behavior in the direction 00:40:43.707 --> 00:40:47.111 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% of its guaranteed outcomes. 00:40:47.178 --> 00:40:49.747 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% This is something new under the sun and 00:40:49.814 --> 00:40:55.386 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% impossible to achieve without the increasingly 00:40:55.452 --> 00:40:59.757 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% global, ubiquitous digital architecture that 00:40:59.824 --> 00:41:02.059 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:65% saturates our environment. 00:41:02.126 --> 00:41:05.262 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% You heard Makan refer to my earlier paper, big 00:41:05.329 --> 00:41:09.333 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% other, this architecture is what I call big other 00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:11.502 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% for a very specific reason, that hopefully 00:41:11.569 --> 00:41:15.206 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% I'll have a minute to explain to before we 00:41:15.272 --> 00:41:17.241 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:43% -- before we end. 00:41:17.308 --> 00:41:22.446 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% So economies of scale, economies of scope, now 00:41:22.513 --> 00:41:25.816 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% we're looking at economies of action. 00:41:25.883 --> 00:41:29.186 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% It's not enough to automate information flows 00:41:29.253 --> 00:41:35.125 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% about us, now the aim is to automate us, to 00:41:35.192 --> 00:41:40.331 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:70% engineer behavior, to modify human behavior at scale. 00:41:40.397 --> 00:41:45.936 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So, you know, I asked myself the question, I'm 00:41:46.003 --> 00:41:47.771 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% sure you're asking yourself the same question 00:41:47.838 --> 00:41:56.347 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% right now, and that is: Wow, that's very powerful, 00:41:56.413 --> 00:41:59.884 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% to be able to command the digital infrastructure, to 00:41:59.950 --> 00:42:05.723 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% actually modify human behavior, this is a very 00:42:05.789 --> 00:42:07.157 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% unique kind of power. 00:42:07.224 --> 00:42:09.426 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% What is this power? 00:42:09.493 --> 00:42:13.063 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And I became riveted on the fact that, you know, a 00:42:13.130 --> 00:42:15.666 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% lot of folks have been talking about big brother, 00:42:15.733 --> 00:42:17.668 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% we talk about Orwell, we talk about digital 00:42:17.735 --> 00:42:20.104 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% totalitarianism and all the rest. 00:42:20.170 --> 00:42:23.908 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% But, in fact, this is pretty much the opposite 00:42:23.974 --> 00:42:26.610 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% of totalitarianism. 00:42:26.677 --> 00:42:28.279 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% This is a kind of power. 00:42:28.345 --> 00:42:32.750 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Remember, totalitarianism operates through terror 00:42:32.816 --> 00:42:37.421 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% and murder, through the constant threat of 00:42:37.488 --> 00:42:39.757 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% physical violence. 00:42:39.823 --> 00:42:43.093 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Remember Stalin's famous phrase: The engineering of 00:42:43.160 --> 00:42:45.095 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% the soul. 00:42:45.162 --> 00:42:49.233 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% This power is almost the opposite of that. 00:42:49.300 --> 00:42:52.603 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% This power really doesn't care what you do. 00:42:52.670 --> 00:42:55.572 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Maybe some of you saw that famous Andy Bosworth, 00:42:55.639 --> 00:42:59.143 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% another leaked memo, when he said, you know, we 00:42:59.209 --> 00:43:01.478 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% connect and we grow. 00:43:01.545 --> 00:43:04.715 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And when -- and when we connect if people use us 00:43:04.782 --> 00:43:06.684 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% to do a terrorist plot, so be it. 00:43:06.750 --> 00:43:08.719 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% We continue to connect and grow. 00:43:08.786 --> 00:43:10.587 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And if people use us to fall in love and get 00:43:10.654 --> 00:43:11.622 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% married, so be it. 00:43:11.689 --> 00:43:14.258 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% We continue to connect and grow. 00:43:14.325 --> 00:43:16.927 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% This is what I call radical indifference. 00:43:16.994 --> 00:43:21.565 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% It's the experimenters' point of view now applied 00:43:21.632 --> 00:43:26.103 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% to real-world behavior on a global scale. 00:43:26.170 --> 00:43:29.573 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% I call this instrumentarian power. 00:43:29.640 --> 00:43:31.575 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% It works remotely. 00:43:31.642 --> 00:43:34.044 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% It doesn't want to beat us up. 00:43:34.111 --> 00:43:37.047 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% It has no intention to drag us from our bed at 00:43:37.114 --> 00:43:40.584 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% night and ship us to the gulag or the camp. 00:43:40.651 --> 00:43:43.387 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% What it does want, relentlessly, is our 00:43:43.454 --> 00:43:47.725 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% behavior, at any cost, in order to fill its supply 00:43:47.791 --> 00:43:50.995 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% chains and drive its markets. 00:43:51.061 --> 00:43:51.662 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right. 00:43:51.729 --> 00:43:56.900 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So economies of action now represent this shift the 00:43:56.967 --> 00:44:00.471 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% data scientists talk about, I interviewed a 00:44:00.537 --> 00:44:03.240 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% whole slew of 52 data scientists, which 00:44:03.307 --> 00:44:07.644 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% represented about 600 years of experience over 00:44:07.711 --> 00:44:09.880 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% the years that I was doing this work. 00:44:09.947 --> 00:44:12.649 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And, you know, they talk about this important shift 00:44:12.716 --> 00:44:14.852 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% in their work from what they call monitoring to 00:44:14.918 --> 00:44:16.320 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% actuation. 00:44:16.387 --> 00:44:18.522 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And this is, you know, you've heard of knowledge 00:44:18.589 --> 00:44:19.990 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% power, right? 00:44:20.057 --> 00:44:21.258 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% Knowledge turns into power. 00:44:21.325 --> 00:44:22.559 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:63% So that's what they mean. 00:44:22.626 --> 00:44:27.931 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% Monitoring is you get a critical mass of 00:44:27.998 --> 00:44:31.502 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% information, at a certain point, and that allows 00:44:31.568 --> 00:44:35.806 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% your monitoring to pivot over, cascade over into 00:44:35.873 --> 00:44:38.442 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% actuation, where you actually have enough 00:44:38.509 --> 00:44:41.045 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% information to be able to remotely program, to 00:44:41.111 --> 00:44:43.614 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:65% automate a machine system. 00:44:43.680 --> 00:44:46.784 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:80% The same thing is now happening with the human system. 00:44:46.850 --> 00:44:52.890 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% Enough critical mass of information in order to 00:44:52.956 --> 00:44:58.328 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% now be able to actually actuate modify human 00:44:58.395 --> 00:45:01.031 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% behavior at scale remotely. 00:45:01.098 --> 00:45:01.698 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:45:01.765 --> 00:45:07.638 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So this may sound a little science fictiony to you, 00:45:07.704 --> 00:45:11.075 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% maybe you think I spent too long behind closed 00:45:11.141 --> 00:45:14.445 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% doors or whatever, but, in fact, there are examples 00:45:14.511 --> 00:45:17.514 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% of this all around us, all around us. 00:45:17.581 --> 00:45:19.716 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And we have to assume that there are many more 00:45:19.783 --> 00:45:22.886 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% examples of this that we have not seen and probably 00:45:22.953 --> 00:45:24.188 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% will never see. 00:45:24.254 --> 00:45:27.391 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% I'm going to just throw out a couple of good 00:45:27.458 --> 00:45:29.560 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% examples because you will already know about them. 00:45:29.626 --> 00:45:33.530 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% Very, very quickly, the Facebook mass of scale, 00:45:33.597 --> 00:45:35.966 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% contingent experiments, anybody remember that, 00:45:36.033 --> 00:45:38.135 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:28% 2012, 2013? 00:45:38.202 --> 00:45:44.675 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% In 2012 they planted some simple cues on Facebook pages 00:45:44.741 --> 00:45:46.610 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% to see if they could get more people to go vote in the 00:45:46.677 --> 00:45:48.011 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% midterm elections. 00:45:48.078 --> 00:45:49.847 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% The answer was, yes, we can. 00:45:49.913 --> 00:45:52.983 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% In 2013, while the whole world was erupting in 00:45:53.050 --> 00:45:56.620 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% outrage over the published findings of the 2012 00:45:56.687 --> 00:46:00.257 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% experiment, 2013 they were conducting another one, 00:46:00.324 --> 00:46:03.193 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% this one planting civil malfeasance to see if they 00:46:03.260 --> 00:46:05.129 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% could get people to feel happier or sadder. 00:46:05.195 --> 00:46:06.730 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% Do you remember that? 00:46:06.797 --> 00:46:08.632 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% So it turns out in both cases they were 00:46:08.699 --> 00:46:09.733 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:28% successful. 00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:12.136 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And when they wrote up the conclusions in prestigious 00:46:12.202 --> 00:46:16.306 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% scholarly journals they celebrated two facts, one, 00:46:16.373 --> 00:46:21.678 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% we now know that we can engineer subliminal cues 00:46:21.745 --> 00:46:24.414 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% on Facebook pages in the online milieu, including 00:46:24.481 --> 00:46:29.486 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% the engineering of social comparison dynamics, in 00:46:29.553 --> 00:46:33.857 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% order to change real world behavior and feeling. 00:46:33.924 --> 00:46:37.060 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Number two, we know that we can do this while 00:46:37.127 --> 00:46:41.832 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% consistently bypassing user awareness. 00:46:41.899 --> 00:46:48.705 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% Thus, depriving users of, obviously, choice, 00:46:48.772 --> 00:46:51.808 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% obviously the right to consent, more importantly, 00:46:51.875 --> 00:46:52.776 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% the right to combat. 00:46:52.843 --> 00:46:54.511 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right? 00:46:54.578 --> 00:47:01.818 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Bypassing user awareness becomes a central -- 00:47:01.885 --> 00:47:09.693 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:70% a central plank of economies of action, amplifying the 00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:13.197 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% one-way mirror, social relations that we saw 00:47:13.263 --> 00:47:14.565 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:63% right from the beginning. 00:47:14.631 --> 00:47:19.403 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So, you know, it's interesting, and for you, 00:47:19.469 --> 00:47:26.276 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% as regulators and lawmakers, you know, this 00:47:26.343 --> 00:47:28.212 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% has to be very interesting, that one of 00:47:28.278 --> 00:47:32.516 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% the key ways that we find out about this stuff is on 00:47:32.583 --> 00:47:35.919 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% the basis of leaked documents and whistle 00:47:35.986 --> 00:47:36.587 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% blowers. 00:47:36.653 --> 00:47:40.624 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% So why is that? 00:47:40.691 --> 00:47:44.328 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So now we have another leaked document, this one 00:47:44.394 --> 00:47:47.864 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% a 23-page document written by Facebook executives in 00:47:47.931 --> 00:47:50.801 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Australia to their Australian and New Zealand 00:47:50.867 --> 00:47:55.339 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% business customers, bragging about the fact, 00:47:55.405 --> 00:47:59.076 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% laying out the -- all these products for these 00:47:59.142 --> 00:48:02.079 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% business customers, these prediction products, where 00:48:02.145 --> 00:48:07.117 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% they understand that they can now -- they can now -- 00:48:07.184 --> 00:48:13.390 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% they now have so much data on 6.6 million teenagers 00:48:13.457 --> 00:48:16.893 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% and young adults in those two countries that they 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:19.463 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% actually can track them through the emotional 00:48:19.529 --> 00:48:22.065 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% cycles of the day and the week. 00:48:22.132 --> 00:48:26.970 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% They can pinpoint when a young person feels 00:48:27.037 --> 00:48:29.339 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% stressed, defeated, overwhelmed, anxious, 00:48:29.406 --> 00:48:34.144 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% nervous, stupid, silly, useless, and a failure. 00:48:34.211 --> 00:48:37.581 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% And they can see the patterns in these 00:48:37.648 --> 00:48:39.850 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% emotional cycles of the week. 00:48:39.916 --> 00:48:42.653 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% They understand by training the models for 00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:44.888 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% the patterns, taking individual data, fitting 00:48:44.955 --> 00:48:46.390 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% them into the pattern. 00:48:46.456 --> 00:48:49.393 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% They can then tell a business customer what 00:48:49.459 --> 00:48:53.897 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% kind of message to send on what day in what hour in 00:48:53.964 --> 00:48:57.401 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% order to provide the antidote to whatever that 00:48:57.467 --> 00:49:02.139 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% salient emotion is in that particular part of the cycle. 00:49:02.205 --> 00:49:07.878 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So for example, Shoshana feels like a failure, 00:49:07.944 --> 00:49:10.781 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% she's filled with anxiety anticipating her Saturday 00:49:10.847 --> 00:49:14.284 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% night date, it is now late Thursday afternoon, 00:49:14.351 --> 00:49:18.221 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% if you've got a sexy black leather jacket I suggest 00:49:18.288 --> 00:49:22.259 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% you send it to her immediately, with a push, 00:49:22.326 --> 00:49:25.329 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% let her know that you will deliver it to her door 00:49:25.395 --> 00:49:29.366 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% free of charge, and you might as well throw in a 00:49:29.433 --> 00:49:30.767 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% discount coupon. 00:49:30.834 --> 00:49:33.036 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% You will make the sale, okay? 00:49:33.103 --> 00:49:35.405 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So this is the kind of thing that they're doing. 00:49:35.472 --> 00:49:41.845 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And in both of these cases what we're seeing is these 00:49:41.912 --> 00:49:46.116 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% increasing experimental zones of economies of 00:49:46.183 --> 00:49:51.121 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% action, learning how to modify human behavior at 00:49:51.188 --> 00:49:53.223 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:15% scale. 00:49:53.290 --> 00:49:55.158 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% Now, of course, what I just said to you will 00:49:55.225 --> 00:49:58.829 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% sound familiar, I hope it sounds familiar, because 00:49:58.895 --> 00:50:01.898 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% it should echo in your head something called 00:50:01.965 --> 00:50:03.734 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% Cambridge Analytica. 00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:06.069 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% Remember Chris Wylie, whistle blower, talking 00:50:06.136 --> 00:50:07.337 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:65% about Cambridge Analytica. 00:50:07.404 --> 00:50:09.673 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% He said: We had so much data about so many 00:50:09.740 --> 00:50:12.409 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% individuals we knew what their inner demons were, 00:50:12.476 --> 00:50:19.483 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% and we could -- we could devise triggers, messages 00:50:19.549 --> 00:50:22.953 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% to send to them to trigger those inner demons to get 00:50:23.019 --> 00:50:25.255 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% them to do something that they wouldn't have 00:50:25.322 --> 00:50:27.224 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% ordinarily done, join a group that they wouldn't 00:50:27.290 --> 00:50:29.226 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% have joined, read material that they wouldn't have 00:50:29.292 --> 00:50:31.728 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:78% read, maybe even vote in a way they wouldn't have voted. 00:50:31.795 --> 00:50:33.063 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:35% We don't know. 00:50:33.130 --> 00:50:33.730 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:15% Right? 00:50:33.797 --> 00:50:37.901 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% So this is: What is Cambridge Analytica? 00:50:37.968 --> 00:50:42.139 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% A pivot a few degrees, taking surveillance 00:50:42.205 --> 00:50:45.175 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% capitalism's, daily mechanisms and methods, 00:50:45.242 --> 00:50:48.945 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% bread and butter, pivoting them a few degrees from 00:50:49.012 --> 00:50:51.481 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% commercial to political outcomes. 00:50:51.548 --> 00:50:53.517 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% That's the way it works. 00:50:53.583 --> 00:50:57.988 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Experimentally developed in Facebook, wholly 00:50:58.054 --> 00:51:01.191 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% imported by Cambridge Analytica. 00:51:01.258 --> 00:51:04.561 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% I just came from Chicago, where I spoke at a 00:51:04.628 --> 00:51:06.730 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% conference over the weekend, at the University 00:51:06.797 --> 00:51:10.434 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% of Chicago, God love it, another speaker at the 00:51:10.500 --> 00:51:14.037 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% conference was Aleksandr Kogan, you remember that 00:51:14.104 --> 00:51:16.006 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% name, right? 00:51:16.072 --> 00:51:19.309 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% The one who got all the Facebook data with his 00:51:19.376 --> 00:51:25.315 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% crackpot personality quiz, and also just happened not 00:51:25.382 --> 00:51:28.852 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% only to get the data of 37 million Facebook users but 00:51:28.919 --> 00:51:32.556 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% of all their friends, so he ended up with about 85 00:51:32.622 --> 00:51:37.027 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% million Facebook users and all their data, all their 00:51:37.093 --> 00:51:42.699 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% data, which he then, most accounts say, sold, he 00:51:42.766 --> 00:51:47.637 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:78% claims not, so maybe you can find out the truth one day. 00:51:47.704 --> 00:51:54.444 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% But it was using this same mechanisms and methods 00:51:54.511 --> 00:51:58.148 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% that Cambridge Analytica got -- got out of the 00:51:58.215 --> 00:52:01.918 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% starting gate in the very first place. 00:52:01.985 --> 00:52:05.555 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And when it was my turn to speak I'm proud to say 00:52:05.622 --> 00:52:11.528 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% that I called Aleksandr Kogan out on his practices 00:52:11.595 --> 00:52:17.801 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% and -- and the effort to dazzling whitewash what he 00:52:17.868 --> 00:52:21.805 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% actually did, because he mentioned the fact that he 00:52:21.872 --> 00:52:26.843 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% was really shocked at how upset people were that he 00:52:26.910 --> 00:52:31.548 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:80% took their data and how they thought that it was creepy. 00:52:31.615 --> 00:52:32.883 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Hmm. 00:52:32.949 --> 00:52:40.991 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:75% Okay. So very quickly, you may not know this, the next 00:52:41.057 --> 00:52:43.960 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% big experimental zone for economies of action didn't 00:52:44.027 --> 00:52:46.463 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% come from Facebook, it came from Google, in the 00:52:46.530 --> 00:52:48.031 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% form of a game. 00:52:48.098 --> 00:52:49.666 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% How many people in this room went out in the 00:52:49.733 --> 00:52:51.334 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% streets with family and friends and played 00:52:51.401 --> 00:52:53.670 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:28% Pokemon-Go? 00:52:53.737 --> 00:52:55.238 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% Come on, fess up, fess up, fess up. 00:52:55.305 --> 00:52:58.141 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:52:58.208 --> 00:53:00.677 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Did you know that Pokemon-Go was incubated 00:53:00.744 --> 00:53:02.946 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:65% in Google over many years? 00:53:03.013 --> 00:53:06.383 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Did you know that it was designed, engineered by 00:53:06.449 --> 00:53:09.986 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% its famous street view boss John Hanke, who 00:53:10.053 --> 00:53:13.089 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% famously told the Villages of Bon, England, when they 00:53:13.156 --> 00:53:15.859 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% came out to the borders of their village and tried to 00:53:15.926 --> 00:53:19.095 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% block the street view cars, and John Hanke said 00:53:19.162 --> 00:53:22.732 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:75% to them, and I'm paraphrasing now, get over it. 00:53:22.799 --> 00:53:26.469 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% The west has decided this is how the future's going 00:53:26.536 --> 00:53:30.006 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% to be so get with the program you villagers. 00:53:30.073 --> 00:53:31.474 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:53:31.541 --> 00:53:34.611 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So yes, and before that, of course, John Hanke 00:53:34.678 --> 00:53:36.980 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% invented Google Earth, it used to be called keyhole, 00:53:37.047 --> 00:53:39.282 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% it was owned by the CIA, purchased by Google, 00:53:39.349 --> 00:53:42.519 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% turned into Google Earth, and John Hanke went to 00:53:42.586 --> 00:53:46.790 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Google and had an illustrious career filling 00:53:46.856 --> 00:53:49.059 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% the pipelines with behavioral surplus from 00:53:49.125 --> 00:53:52.495 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% every aspect of human behavior. 00:53:52.562 --> 00:53:56.600 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% So it turns out that Pokemon-Go was a game 00:53:56.666 --> 00:53:58.868 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:35% within a game. 00:53:58.935 --> 00:54:02.372 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% And that, in fact, the bigger game was that 00:54:02.439 --> 00:54:05.475 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% establishments, not only McDonalds and Starbucks, 00:54:05.542 --> 00:54:08.878 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% all over the world, but also Joe's Pizza and Ed's 00:54:08.945 --> 00:54:15.418 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Tire Shop were paying Pokemon-Go for guaranteed, 00:54:15.485 --> 00:54:17.520 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% what, not click-through rates, because this is the 00:54:17.587 --> 00:54:20.824 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% real world, what's the real world analogy to 00:54:20.890 --> 00:54:22.826 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% click-through rates? 00:54:22.892 --> 00:54:24.995 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% footfall, right? 00:54:25.061 --> 00:54:28.264 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% Guaranteed real bodies, with their real feet, 00:54:28.331 --> 00:54:31.701 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% falling on the floors of my real establishment to 00:54:31.768 --> 00:54:33.870 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:43% spend real money. 00:54:33.937 --> 00:54:37.307 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So these establishments, maybe you went to some, 00:54:37.374 --> 00:54:39.376 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% did you go to McDonalds with your kids? 00:54:39.442 --> 00:54:40.043 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Huh? 00:54:40.110 --> 00:54:41.244 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:08% No? 00:54:41.311 --> 00:54:41.911 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:54:41.978 --> 00:54:42.579 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:08% No? 00:54:42.646 --> 00:54:46.983 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% Yeah, I'm looking over there, yeah, yeah. 00:54:47.050 --> 00:54:51.921 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So -- so -- so here we have these establishments 00:54:51.988 --> 00:54:58.461 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:80% having the opportunity to buy lure, l-u-r-e, lure modules. 00:54:58.528 --> 00:55:01.297 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So the point is that between lure modules and 00:55:01.364 --> 00:55:02.632 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% the rewards and punishments of gamification 00:55:02.699 --> 00:55:08.938 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% they learned how to herd populations of 00:55:09.005 --> 00:55:13.877 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% people through the city streets to their 00:55:13.943 --> 00:55:17.881 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% guaranteed destinations in order Ka-ching, Ka-ching, 00:55:17.947 --> 00:55:20.817 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% to have that transaction, highly lucrative 00:55:20.884 --> 00:55:22.686 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% predictions of footfall. 00:55:22.752 --> 00:55:23.687 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 00:55:23.753 --> 00:55:27.657 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% So now, let's get to the end of this. 00:55:38.668 --> 00:55:40.236 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% I'm skipping some things that I was going to say, 00:55:40.303 --> 00:55:42.572 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% because you're going to ask me questions, and 00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:46.943 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% that's when I'm going to say them, because I want 00:55:47.010 --> 00:55:51.281 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% to get to this big final question. 00:55:51.347 --> 00:55:53.950 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% What is to be done? 00:55:54.017 --> 00:55:56.953 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% That's the question everybody has on their minds. 00:55:57.020 --> 00:56:05.628 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So first of all, I want to say that I, unlike a lot 00:56:05.695 --> 00:56:08.164 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% of other people who listen to me at this stage of my 00:56:08.231 --> 00:56:11.367 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% talk, and who feel depressed and morose, 00:56:11.434 --> 00:56:13.069 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% I am very optimistic. 00:56:13.136 --> 00:56:19.042 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% I am very optimistic about our what happens next. 00:56:19.109 --> 00:56:24.814 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% First of all, because, begin on this note, 00:56:24.881 --> 00:56:27.350 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% surveillance capitalism thrived in what kind of 00:56:27.417 --> 00:56:29.419 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% environment? 00:56:29.486 --> 00:56:31.855 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% A lawless environment. 00:56:31.921 --> 00:56:38.528 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So it's not like we've been working for 20 years 00:56:38.595 --> 00:56:42.832 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% to stop this thing and it just keeps growing. 00:56:42.899 --> 00:56:46.236 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% The way I see it, we actually hadn't really 00:56:46.302 --> 00:56:46.903 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% started yet. 00:56:46.970 --> 00:56:51.107 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% I mean, yeah, we've had a fine here, a fine there. 00:56:51.174 --> 00:56:53.176 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% We've had some stuff in Europe, you know, we've 00:56:53.243 --> 00:56:55.845 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% recently had a five billion dollar fine here. 00:56:55.912 --> 00:56:59.215 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% But we all know that those fines aren't what's going 00:56:59.282 --> 00:56:59.883 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% to do it. 00:56:59.949 --> 00:57:06.823 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So, in fact, I'm quite optimistic because this is 00:57:06.890 --> 00:57:11.394 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% sort of the -- the kind of cycle time when you have 00:57:11.461 --> 00:57:14.464 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% massive technological transformation and 00:57:14.531 --> 00:57:16.599 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:43% democracy, right? 00:57:16.666 --> 00:57:18.701 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% So the -- the tech guys like to say, well, 00:57:18.768 --> 00:57:22.272 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% democracy is slow and, therefore, hopeless. 00:57:22.338 --> 00:57:25.341 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% Democracy impedes competitiveness, 00:57:25.408 --> 00:57:29.846 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% innovation, too slow, will never catch up with us. 00:57:29.913 --> 00:57:32.115 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% I quote Larry Page saying, you can't expect us to 00:57:32.182 --> 00:57:34.717 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% follow laws that were invented before the internet. 00:57:34.784 --> 00:57:41.858 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:75% I always think of habeas corpus, such an important law. 00:57:41.925 --> 00:57:47.263 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% But in any case, so we have a situation where -- 00:57:47.330 --> 00:57:52.235 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% where democracy is slow and that's a good thing. 00:57:52.302 --> 00:57:56.406 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Democracy is slow because it's democratic, and 00:57:56.472 --> 00:58:00.610 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% because it reflects the interests and experience 00:58:00.677 --> 00:58:06.916 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% of people in our society and how we move to be 00:58:06.983 --> 00:58:10.320 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% aligned with our aspirations, with our 00:58:10.386 --> 00:58:14.791 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% democratic aspirations for our future society. 00:58:14.858 --> 00:58:18.928 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% So -- so it's right that democracy is slow. 00:58:18.995 --> 00:58:23.600 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% The idea that democratic intervention degrades 00:58:23.666 --> 00:58:29.172 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% competitiveness is absolutely -- it would be 00:58:29.239 --> 00:58:32.075 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% laughable if it wasn't one of the most pernicious 00:58:32.141 --> 00:58:37.714 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% myths perpetuated by -- by the surveillance 00:58:37.780 --> 00:58:40.016 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% capitalists, because, in fact, it is the 00:58:40.083 --> 00:58:44.754 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% surveillance dividend that has been the great enemy 00:58:44.821 --> 00:58:47.624 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% of competition in these spaces. 00:58:47.690 --> 00:58:50.927 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% There are hundreds, thousands, hundreds of 00:58:50.994 --> 00:58:55.598 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% thousands of businesses, of entrepreneurs, of 00:58:55.665 --> 00:59:00.069 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% people with great ideas, who want to be taking 00:59:00.136 --> 00:59:03.840 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% advantage of digital technology to actually 00:59:03.907 --> 00:59:08.945 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% address our needs and to address the needs of society. 00:59:11.848 --> 00:59:15.218 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% But right now, unless they are willing to go after 00:59:15.285 --> 00:59:18.488 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% the surveillance dividend, their chances of getting 00:59:18.554 --> 00:59:21.090 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% the investment support that they need, their 00:59:21.157 --> 00:59:25.695 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% chances of getting the -- the analyst support that 00:59:25.762 --> 00:59:29.299 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% they need, are very, very low. 00:59:29.365 --> 00:59:32.602 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% So it's, in fact, the surveillance dividend 00:59:32.669 --> 00:59:35.638 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% essential to this logic that it suppressing 00:59:35.705 --> 00:59:37.006 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% competition. 00:59:37.073 --> 00:59:41.778 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So the way I look at it, the big challenge for us 00:59:41.844 --> 00:59:47.183 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% is how do we interrupt and outlaw this logic so that 00:59:47.250 --> 00:59:49.218 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% we eliminate the ascendence for the 00:59:49.285 --> 00:59:50.787 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% surveillance dividend? 00:59:50.853 --> 00:59:54.824 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And when we do that then stand back and watch 00:59:54.891 --> 00:59:57.894 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% competition flourish? 00:59:57.961 --> 00:59:59.462 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% That's my conclusion. 00:59:59.529 --> 01:00:00.830 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% How do you do that? 01:00:00.897 --> 01:00:03.399 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Well, first of all, you aim at supply and you aim 01:00:03.466 --> 01:00:05.802 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% at demand, supply and demand. 01:00:05.868 --> 01:00:09.372 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% I started to say this to you before, every time you 01:00:09.439 --> 01:00:13.009 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:80% tell people about what's going on backstage they hate it. 01:00:13.076 --> 01:00:17.180 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Every piece of research, every survey, every 01:00:17.246 --> 01:00:19.449 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% interactive thing that's written about every time 01:00:19.515 --> 01:00:22.151 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% people find out about these backstage operations 01:00:22.218 --> 01:00:23.619 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% they hate it. 01:00:23.686 --> 01:00:24.921 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% They want encryption. 01:00:24.988 --> 01:00:26.756 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% They say, how do I get away from it? 01:00:26.823 --> 01:00:28.725 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:58% And so on and so forth. 01:00:28.791 --> 01:00:30.960 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:58% But they keep using it. 01:00:31.027 --> 01:00:33.029 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And so the tech companies point to this and they 01:00:33.096 --> 01:00:36.232 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% say, see, they actually -- they actually love us. 01:00:36.299 --> 01:00:37.834 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:58% They're still using us. 01:00:37.900 --> 01:00:40.303 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And their researchers, academics point to this 01:00:40.370 --> 01:00:42.338 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% and they say: This is what we call the privacy 01:00:42.405 --> 01:00:43.806 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% paradox. 01:00:43.873 --> 01:00:45.842 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% There's no paradox, here, folks. 01:00:45.908 --> 01:00:49.979 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% We continue to use this for 16 reasons, but I'm 01:00:50.046 --> 01:00:53.249 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% only going to mention three right now, one is 01:00:53.316 --> 01:00:57.286 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% because it's unprecedented and most people still have 01:00:57.353 --> 01:00:59.055 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% no idea what's going on. 01:00:59.122 --> 01:01:02.025 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% Number two, because a tremendous amount of 01:01:02.091 --> 01:01:05.228 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% surveillance capital is used to engineer our 01:01:05.294 --> 01:01:08.831 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% ignorance to keep us not knowing what's going on. 01:01:08.898 --> 01:01:12.168 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And number three, it's called the dictatorship of 01:01:12.235 --> 01:01:14.370 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% no alternatives. 01:01:14.437 --> 01:01:16.873 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% They have created a world of no escape. 01:01:16.939 --> 01:01:20.009 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Ergo, my very first sentence, the internet is 01:01:20.076 --> 01:01:22.745 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% now owned and operated by private surveillance 01:01:22.812 --> 01:01:25.815 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% capital, a world of no escape, I want to make 01:01:25.882 --> 01:01:28.051 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% plans with my friends and family for dinner, I'm 01:01:28.117 --> 01:01:31.421 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% marching through their supply chains. 01:01:31.487 --> 01:01:34.424 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% I want to get my health data from my doctor's office? 01:01:34.490 --> 01:01:37.760 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% I'm marching through their supply chains. 01:01:37.827 --> 01:01:39.095 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% I want to get my kids grades from school? 01:01:39.162 --> 01:01:43.633 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% I'm marching through their supply chains, the Google 01:01:43.699 --> 01:01:44.634 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% platform. 01:01:44.700 --> 01:01:49.005 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% In fact, two weeks ago I was on a government 01:01:49.072 --> 01:01:52.942 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% website, trying to download something that 01:01:53.009 --> 01:01:56.312 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% I had to send to my German publisher, an IRS kind of 01:01:56.379 --> 01:01:59.715 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% form, and my tracking thing in the corner of my 01:01:59.782 --> 01:02:03.686 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% screen, three trackers blocked, five trackers 01:02:03.753 --> 01:02:07.723 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% blocked, on a US government website. 01:02:07.790 --> 01:02:08.391 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 01:02:08.458 --> 01:02:10.626 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Owned and operated by surveillance capitalism. 01:02:10.693 --> 01:02:12.061 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% No exit. 01:02:12.128 --> 01:02:16.599 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:80% So my view is, how do we -- how do we make sense of this? 01:02:16.666 --> 01:02:18.901 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Well, the only way to make sense of this is to say 01:02:18.968 --> 01:02:21.471 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% that surveillance capitalism is a market 01:02:21.537 --> 01:02:26.275 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% failure for all the ways in which it's been 01:02:26.342 --> 01:02:28.878 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% rewarded for the surveillance dividend. 01:02:28.945 --> 01:02:31.447 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% When you actually talk about supply and demand, 01:02:31.514 --> 01:02:35.451 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% the way capitalists have always talked about supply 01:02:35.518 --> 01:02:39.288 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% and demand, i.e., you know, because the big 01:02:39.355 --> 01:02:42.091 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% change now is -- you notice this, right -- 01:02:42.158 --> 01:02:46.696 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% we're not the customers and we're not the product. 01:02:46.762 --> 01:02:49.999 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% We are the raw material. 01:02:50.066 --> 01:02:53.336 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% We are now human nature to be harvested. 01:02:53.402 --> 01:02:54.637 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% That's it. 01:02:54.704 --> 01:02:57.173 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% Abandon the carcass, harvest the predictive 01:02:57.240 --> 01:02:58.508 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% signals, that's it. 01:02:58.574 --> 01:03:03.679 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So -- so this is a market failure, because it's not 01:03:03.746 --> 01:03:06.215 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:63% really meeting our needs. 01:03:06.282 --> 01:03:09.318 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% It's about us, but not for us. 01:03:09.385 --> 01:03:09.986 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 01:03:10.052 --> 01:03:14.857 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So -- so how do we -- how do we interrupt this? 01:03:14.924 --> 01:03:17.894 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Well, my view is we begin with supply at the 01:03:17.960 --> 01:03:20.730 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% beginning of that value chain I described to you 01:03:20.796 --> 01:03:22.498 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:58% and we end with demand. 01:03:22.565 --> 01:03:25.568 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% By supply I mean -- I'm not talking about data 01:03:25.635 --> 01:03:27.270 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% ownership, accessibility, and portability. 01:03:27.336 --> 01:03:30.306 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% If we -- if we start off talking about data we've 01:03:30.373 --> 01:03:31.807 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% already lost. 01:03:31.874 --> 01:03:35.411 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% We have to go back to that very first step -- whoops 01:03:35.478 --> 01:03:39.749 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% -- that very first step, which was -- what was that 01:03:39.815 --> 01:03:41.951 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% very first step? 01:03:42.018 --> 01:03:47.423 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Claiming -- remember the new commodity -- claiming 01:03:47.490 --> 01:03:53.229 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% private human experience and translating it into data. 01:03:53.296 --> 01:03:55.865 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% If we start already arguing about data that's 01:03:55.932 --> 01:04:01.437 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% like arguing with US Steel about the number of hours 01:04:01.504 --> 01:04:05.641 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% a day a child should work in that steel mill. 01:04:05.708 --> 01:04:08.377 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% That's not an argument we had, we said, 01:04:08.444 --> 01:04:12.315 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% comprehensive child labor laws, federal, not state. 01:04:12.381 --> 01:04:14.283 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right? 01:04:14.350 --> 01:04:17.386 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So we don't want to just bargain about the data. 01:04:17.453 --> 01:04:20.556 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% We want to go right to the start where data is 01:04:20.623 --> 01:04:24.126 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% illegitimately taken, that's actually called 01:04:24.193 --> 01:04:28.598 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% stealing, that's where we need to start, because, 01:04:28.664 --> 01:04:30.700 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% you know what, they have no right to my face, 01:04:30.766 --> 01:04:34.370 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% because with my face they get my emotions, with my 01:04:34.437 --> 01:04:36.339 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% emotions they predict my behavior. 01:04:36.405 --> 01:04:38.908 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% I say I don't want them to have my face. 01:04:38.975 --> 01:04:42.778 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% If I should decide that somebody can have my face 01:04:42.845 --> 01:04:46.682 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% for some kind of analysis, maybe I've got a palsy and 01:04:46.749 --> 01:04:49.218 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% I want to contribute to the disease group that's 01:04:49.285 --> 01:04:54.757 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% going to work on that palsy, that's my decision. 01:04:54.824 --> 01:04:56.592 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:35% It doesn't get taken from me. 01:04:56.659 --> 01:04:58.160 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% That's my decision. 01:04:58.227 --> 01:04:58.828 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 01:04:58.894 --> 01:05:03.733 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So we interrupt supply, at the far end, what's the 01:05:03.799 --> 01:05:06.269 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% furthest end we talked about? 01:05:06.335 --> 01:05:07.970 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% Right, these markets. 01:05:08.037 --> 01:05:10.206 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% Markets that trade in human futures. 01:05:10.273 --> 01:05:12.141 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And I've been talking to you about the competitive 01:05:12.208 --> 01:05:15.144 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% dynamics of those markets and how they lead to these 01:05:15.211 --> 01:05:16.078 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% imperatives. 01:05:16.145 --> 01:05:20.816 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Remember, what were they, scale, scope, action, 01:05:20.883 --> 01:05:21.484 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:15% right? 01:05:21.550 --> 01:05:24.186 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% With all the pernicious effects of knowledge 01:05:24.253 --> 01:05:27.089 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% pivoting into power in ways that are 01:05:27.156 --> 01:05:30.092 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% fundamentally undermining to democracy. 01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:31.327 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Why? 01:05:31.394 --> 01:05:34.630 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% Because economies of action undermine, 01:05:34.697 --> 01:05:39.101 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% disregard human autonomy, bypassing awareness, 01:05:39.168 --> 01:05:42.438 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% robbing us of the right to combat, a fundamental 01:05:42.505 --> 01:05:47.143 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% assault on individual sovereignty, individual 01:05:47.209 --> 01:05:49.578 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% agency without which a democratic society is 01:05:49.645 --> 01:05:51.781 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% impossible to imagine. 01:05:51.847 --> 01:05:56.218 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% And of course, from above, creating these 01:05:56.285 --> 01:06:00.256 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% unprecedented asymmetries of knowledge and the power 01:06:00.323 --> 01:06:01.757 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% that that knowledge affords. 01:06:01.824 --> 01:06:03.492 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 01:06:03.559 --> 01:06:07.263 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So the answer is to make human futures markets 01:06:07.330 --> 01:06:07.930 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% illegal. 01:06:07.997 --> 01:06:13.369 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% We make other kinds of markets illegal. 01:06:13.436 --> 01:06:17.173 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% We say, no trading in human organs, because the 01:06:17.239 --> 01:06:21.077 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% effects are predictably pernicious. 01:06:21.143 --> 01:06:23.713 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% We say, no trading in human slaves, because the 01:06:23.779 --> 01:06:28.050 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% effects are predictably pernicious. 01:06:28.117 --> 01:06:34.390 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So we can say no trading in human futures because 01:06:34.457 --> 01:06:39.462 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% the effects are predictively pernicious 01:06:39.528 --> 01:06:42.264 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% and inevitably on a collision course with 01:06:42.331 --> 01:06:42.932 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% democracy. 01:06:42.998 --> 01:06:48.003 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right. 01:06:50.873 --> 01:06:53.075 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% So that's a lot of what I wanted to say to you. 01:06:53.142 --> 01:06:54.777 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% I really want to hear your questions. 01:06:54.844 --> 01:06:56.512 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% I know we've gone later than everybody wanted 01:06:56.579 --> 01:07:00.349 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% because -- because of the nor'easter, but please let 01:07:00.416 --> 01:07:02.885 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% me -- let me hear your questions and let's bat 01:07:02.952 --> 01:07:05.755 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% some things around, but by all means, ask questions 01:07:05.821 --> 01:07:09.392 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% and challenge, some other material will come out as 01:07:09.458 --> 01:07:10.092 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:28% we do that. 01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:11.560 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% Can I leave the podium now? 01:07:11.627 --> 01:07:12.328 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Yes. 01:07:12.395 --> 01:07:12.995 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% Thank you. 01:07:13.062 --> 01:07:15.865 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% I feel like I've just been freed. 01:07:15.931 --> 01:07:19.802 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% I just think he prefers you to stand on this side 01:07:19.869 --> 01:07:23.372 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% so you're in the possible -- that's my value add. 01:07:23.439 --> 01:07:26.142 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% I love having assistance and direction, I find it 01:07:26.208 --> 01:07:26.976 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:35% very relaxing. 01:07:27.042 --> 01:07:27.643 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% Thank you. 01:07:27.710 --> 01:07:32.381 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So I do have a question if I -- so I think it is the 01:07:32.448 --> 01:07:36.585 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% case that the only way -- Jeff, can you -- Yes. 01:07:36.652 --> 01:07:38.721 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:43% Turned it around. 01:07:38.788 --> 01:07:42.525 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% I think it's the case that the only way -- this is a 01:07:42.591 --> 01:07:47.196 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% strong claim -- that you can reliably make money on 01:07:47.263 --> 01:07:50.466 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% the internet today is using data and 01:07:50.533 --> 01:07:51.133 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% advertising. 01:07:51.200 --> 01:07:53.702 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% It's a little strong, but let's just assume that, 01:07:53.769 --> 01:07:57.406 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% for now, if -- if that is the case, when we outlaw 01:07:57.473 --> 01:08:00.810 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% these firm's ability to surveil do we risk under 01:08:00.876 --> 01:08:07.917 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% -- undermining their ability to actually create 01:08:07.983 --> 01:08:11.387 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% value for consumers that we care about, right? 01:08:11.454 --> 01:08:13.389 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So there's lots of things that these firms do that I 01:08:13.456 --> 01:08:17.760 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% think we value. 01:08:17.827 --> 01:08:20.696 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% I'm a little bit concerned, if we just say 01:08:20.763 --> 01:08:25.301 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% stop, those business -- those businesses are not 01:08:25.367 --> 01:08:26.869 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% going to be able to thrive anymore. 01:08:26.936 --> 01:08:27.536 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 01:08:27.603 --> 01:08:28.871 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% Such a good question, of course. 01:08:28.938 --> 01:08:29.538 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% All right. 01:08:29.605 --> 01:08:33.042 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So one of the -- you know, one of the things that we 01:08:33.108 --> 01:08:36.779 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% really need to get away from is imaging that we 01:08:36.846 --> 01:08:43.352 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% are stuck in this time warp of click-through rates and 01:08:43.419 --> 01:08:48.157 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% micro targeting for online advertising, okay? 01:08:48.224 --> 01:08:50.459 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% Because we have gone beyond that now. 01:08:50.526 --> 01:08:52.728 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% As I intimated, but didn't really have time to get 01:08:52.795 --> 01:08:54.463 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% into it with examples and so forth. 01:08:54.530 --> 01:08:57.032 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So I want you to think about it this way: Saying 01:08:57.099 --> 01:08:59.368 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% that surveillance capitalism is only the 01:08:59.435 --> 01:09:03.105 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% online ad market is like saying that mass 01:09:03.172 --> 01:09:06.942 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% production is only to make Model-Ts. 01:09:07.009 --> 01:09:09.812 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% It's like that. 01:09:09.879 --> 01:09:11.881 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% It's where it started. 01:09:11.947 --> 01:09:15.217 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% It was the original context. 01:09:15.284 --> 01:09:16.919 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% But we have moved beyond that context. 01:09:16.986 --> 01:09:19.121 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:80% So let's look at some examples: Wheere we were talking 01:09:19.188 --> 01:09:24.326 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% about -- well, for example, in the insurance 01:09:24.393 --> 01:09:26.729 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:35% sector, right? 01:09:26.795 --> 01:09:31.634 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% So in the insurance sector we're using digital, right? 01:09:31.700 --> 01:09:34.970 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So it's not -- it's internet-enabled, but, you 01:09:35.037 --> 01:09:38.340 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% know, get out of your head the idea that it's just 01:09:38.407 --> 01:09:41.677 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% like me on my phone or me on a keyboard, right? 01:09:41.744 --> 01:09:46.649 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So it's using automotive telematics to track the 01:09:46.715 --> 01:09:52.121 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% minutia of your behavior as a driver to shape your 01:09:52.187 --> 01:09:56.992 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% behavior, modify behavior in realtime, by offering 01:09:57.059 --> 01:10:00.029 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% rewards and punishments in realtime, raising your 01:10:00.095 --> 01:10:02.998 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% premium rate, punishment because you just took that 01:10:03.065 --> 01:10:06.735 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% curve too fast, lowering your premium rate, reward 01:10:06.802 --> 01:10:11.173 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% because you slowed down just as the light was 01:10:11.240 --> 01:10:12.408 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% turning yellow, right? 01:10:12.474 --> 01:10:19.181 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So -- so, you know -- so -- so that's one kind of 01:10:19.248 --> 01:10:21.817 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% example in the insurance industry. 01:10:21.884 --> 01:10:26.522 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% Now, you also want to be thinking about these 01:10:26.589 --> 01:10:27.189 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:28% ecosystems. 01:10:27.256 --> 01:10:30.926 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% Because now we have, for example, firms that 01:10:30.993 --> 01:10:36.966 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% specialize in -- I was writing this years ago, 01:10:37.032 --> 01:10:39.234 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% and I called it surveillance as a service, 01:10:39.301 --> 01:10:40.769 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% you know, because people write about software as a 01:10:40.836 --> 01:10:46.108 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% service, but surveillance, SVAAS, I thought I'll just 01:10:46.175 --> 01:10:49.511 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% riff on that, surveillance as a service. 01:10:49.578 --> 01:10:51.547 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Lo and behold, a couple years later Amazon -- when 01:10:51.614 --> 01:10:58.153 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Amazon decided to go over to become not only a 01:10:58.220 --> 01:11:02.091 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% ruthless capitalist but also now a ruthless 01:11:02.157 --> 01:11:05.594 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% surveillance capitalist -- they started calling their 01:11:05.661 --> 01:11:09.131 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% new products and services: Surveillance as a service, 01:11:09.198 --> 01:11:11.600 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% as if, like, that was a good thing. 01:11:11.667 --> 01:11:15.704 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% But that's definitely not the way I meant it. 01:11:15.771 --> 01:11:18.474 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% But now we have firms that are, you know, in these 01:11:18.540 --> 01:11:22.845 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% ecosystems specializing in different niches of 01:11:22.911 --> 01:11:23.946 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% behavioral surplus. 01:11:24.013 --> 01:11:28.117 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So, for example, there are firms that will just get 01:11:28.183 --> 01:11:34.390 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% data about peoples' renting behavior, and then 01:11:34.456 --> 01:11:39.728 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% they -- and then they, you know, they will have 01:11:39.795 --> 01:11:43.065 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% deals, maybe with IBM or with some other AI, and 01:11:43.132 --> 01:11:46.402 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% they come up with predictions, and then they 01:11:46.468 --> 01:11:48.504 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% sell either the raw data flows or they sell the 01:11:48.570 --> 01:11:53.642 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% prediction products to these -- these home -- you 01:11:53.709 --> 01:11:57.079 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% know, home development companies, landlords who 01:11:57.146 --> 01:12:00.916 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% specifically have, you know, Joe Schmo just 01:12:00.983 --> 01:12:05.521 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% applied for an apartment, and they're using these 01:12:05.587 --> 01:12:08.557 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% data to be able to predict what kind of renter will 01:12:08.624 --> 01:12:09.224 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:18% Joe be. 01:12:09.291 --> 01:12:14.697 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So these are just a couple of examples, we're seeing 01:12:14.763 --> 01:12:19.935 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% them in the health, in health insurance, we're 01:12:20.002 --> 01:12:23.672 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% seeing them in education, we're seeing them in real 01:12:23.739 --> 01:12:26.208 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% estate, we're seeing them in transportation, 01:12:26.275 --> 01:12:30.212 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% different ways in which we're using the digital 01:12:30.279 --> 01:12:34.083 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% surround, right, to produce the data flows, 01:12:34.149 --> 01:12:38.921 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% either selling those niches of data flows or 01:12:38.987 --> 01:12:41.824 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% turning them into products that are then sold in 01:12:41.890 --> 01:12:43.592 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:35% these markets. 01:12:43.659 --> 01:12:48.363 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So -- and they're changing the face of every 01:12:48.430 --> 01:12:53.035 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% industry, right? 01:12:53.102 --> 01:12:55.471 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So -- so what's -- what's -- what is absolutely 01:12:55.537 --> 01:13:00.542 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% right about what you said is that it's hard to make 01:13:00.609 --> 01:13:02.544 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% money without the surveillance dividend. 01:13:02.611 --> 01:13:07.316 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And that's now starting to be true in the insurance 01:13:07.382 --> 01:13:12.654 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% industry just as, you know, starting 20 years 01:13:12.721 --> 01:13:17.392 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% ago it turned out to be true in Google and search, 01:13:17.459 --> 01:13:19.995 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% you know, and then Zuckerberg figured out 01:13:20.062 --> 01:13:22.064 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% that he needed to do the same thing because he 01:13:22.131 --> 01:13:24.700 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% couldn't figure out how to make money fast enough. 01:13:24.767 --> 01:13:27.069 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And so that's when he hired Sheryl Sandberg, and 01:13:27.136 --> 01:13:28.937 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% I call her the Typhoid Mary of surveillance 01:13:29.004 --> 01:13:33.509 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% capitalism because she brought it to Facebook and 01:13:33.575 --> 01:13:34.843 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% we kind of went from there. 01:13:37.913 --> 01:13:40.349 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% So -- so -- so we're -- so -- okay. 01:13:40.415 --> 01:13:41.784 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% So that's one part of your question. 01:13:41.850 --> 01:13:43.986 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% The second part of your question is, are we going 01:13:44.052 --> 01:13:47.022 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% to mess up these things that we value? 01:13:47.089 --> 01:13:48.090 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 01:13:48.157 --> 01:13:52.427 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% I have a good answer and -- and then another 01:13:52.494 --> 01:13:53.328 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:18% answer. 01:13:53.395 --> 01:13:57.432 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% The good answer is that there are I don't know how 01:13:57.499 --> 01:14:06.175 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% many people waiting in the wings who want to do 01:14:06.241 --> 01:14:14.049 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% social network for the people who use it without 01:14:14.116 --> 01:14:20.923 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% the -- the varieties of consequences that Facebook 01:14:20.989 --> 01:14:24.226 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% has produced by following this economic logic. 01:14:24.293 --> 01:14:26.929 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% I don't have to repeat the news headlines of the past 01:14:26.995 --> 01:14:30.098 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% two years to you as these consequences have become 01:14:30.165 --> 01:14:31.266 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:63% more clear to the public. 01:14:31.333 --> 01:14:42.144 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% But Facebook is -- is an ungoverned entity that is 01:14:42.211 --> 01:14:48.016 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% now deciding on the, you know, the content of 01:14:48.083 --> 01:14:52.588 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% social connection all around the world, to the 01:14:52.654 --> 01:14:56.391 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% great detriment of governments, of 01:14:56.458 --> 01:14:59.127 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% democracies, and of individual human beings. 01:14:59.194 --> 01:15:05.067 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So -- so -- and again it's not because Mr. Zuckerberg 01:15:05.133 --> 01:15:07.035 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% began as an evil guy. 01:15:07.102 --> 01:15:09.605 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% I don't know him, can't opine. 01:15:09.671 --> 01:15:13.909 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Point is that these are economic imperatives with 01:15:13.976 --> 01:15:16.745 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% predictable consequences, that's what I'm getting at 01:15:16.812 --> 01:15:19.147 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% and that's why we need to interrupt them. 01:15:19.214 --> 01:15:25.854 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So -- so can we do social networks without the 01:15:25.921 --> 01:15:28.090 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% overhang of the surveillance dividend and 01:15:28.156 --> 01:15:29.591 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:43% its consequences? 01:15:29.658 --> 01:15:31.193 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% Absolutely we can. 01:15:31.260 --> 01:15:33.695 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% Are there people eager to do it now? 01:15:33.762 --> 01:15:34.696 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Yes. 01:15:34.763 --> 01:15:38.267 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% Has innovation in that space ground to a halt? 01:15:38.333 --> 01:15:39.034 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Yes. 01:15:39.101 --> 01:15:39.902 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Why? 01:15:39.968 --> 01:15:42.838 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Because any time there's another platform Facebook 01:15:42.905 --> 01:15:47.342 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% buys it or, in the case of Snapchat, they imitate it. 01:15:47.409 --> 01:15:49.778 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So they have killed innovation in that space 01:15:49.845 --> 01:15:55.350 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% and everything is now this one vast behemoth which, 01:15:55.417 --> 01:15:58.353 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% yes, from a certain point of view it, you know, 01:15:58.420 --> 01:16:01.256 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% looks like a classic monopoly. 01:16:01.323 --> 01:16:05.527 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% But it's -- it's not, because it's a huge size, 01:16:05.594 --> 01:16:06.194 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:15% right? 01:16:06.261 --> 01:16:09.731 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Because they actually employ fewer people today, 01:16:09.798 --> 01:16:12.367 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% at their height of market capitalization, than 01:16:12.434 --> 01:16:15.437 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% General Motors employed at the height of the Great 01:16:15.504 --> 01:16:17.172 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:28% Depression. 01:16:17.239 --> 01:16:19.942 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% So it's not -- you know, it's not size. 01:16:20.008 --> 01:16:21.276 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% It's data flows. 01:16:21.343 --> 01:16:23.011 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% It's behavioral surplus flows. 01:16:23.078 --> 01:16:26.915 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% That's what they're monopolizing. 01:16:26.982 --> 01:16:29.184 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 01:16:29.251 --> 01:16:31.853 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So let's -- so obviously we could keep going, but 01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:33.555 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:35% that's some -- some response. 01:16:33.622 --> 01:16:36.191 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:65% Were any of those -- Yeah. 01:16:36.258 --> 01:16:39.094 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% -- potential competitors that Facebook or Google 01:16:39.161 --> 01:16:42.965 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% bought, were any of them, like you mentioned 01:16:43.031 --> 01:16:45.434 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% Snapchat, based on an economic model that was 01:16:45.500 --> 01:16:49.771 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% something other than surveillance capitalism? 01:16:49.838 --> 01:16:51.473 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Yes. 01:16:51.540 --> 01:16:57.813 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% Well, yes, because, you know, WhatsApp was all 01:16:57.879 --> 01:17:04.086 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% about encryption, and Snapchat was the 01:17:04.152 --> 01:17:09.424 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% disappearing thing, so you know these were -- 01:17:09.491 --> 01:17:12.761 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:70% They were not collecting the behavioral data to then 01:17:12.828 --> 01:17:14.930 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% try to sell to advertisers at that time? 01:17:14.997 --> 01:17:16.264 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% They do now. 01:17:16.331 --> 01:17:17.399 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% They do? 01:17:17.466 --> 01:17:20.068 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% But they were not at the beginning. 01:17:20.135 --> 01:17:23.839 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And this -- this is why, for example, you know 01:17:23.905 --> 01:17:26.742 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% people were shocked at the price that Mark Zuckerberg 01:17:26.808 --> 01:17:31.179 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% paid for WhatsApp because it wasn't yet making money. 01:17:31.246 --> 01:17:33.782 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And he -- he -- I -- it was in the billions, I 01:17:33.849 --> 01:17:35.317 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% forget exactly what it is, I have it here in my 01:17:35.384 --> 01:17:38.854 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% notes, but the point is, you know, he paid what was 01:17:38.920 --> 01:17:41.656 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% then regarded as an outlandish price. 01:17:41.723 --> 01:17:45.827 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% But again, from the point of view of this economic 01:17:45.894 --> 01:17:50.165 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:78% logic, it's very easy to understand why that made sense. 01:17:50.232 --> 01:17:51.366 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% Are you with me on that? 01:17:51.433 --> 01:17:52.034 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Yeah? 01:17:52.100 --> 01:17:52.701 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Yes. 01:17:52.768 --> 01:17:56.204 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So -- and then when it -- and then when Snapchat 01:17:56.271 --> 01:18:00.142 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% became so popular, because it was disappearing, and 01:18:00.208 --> 01:18:03.545 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% that was pulling people away from Facebook, who 01:18:03.612 --> 01:18:07.049 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% were already, you know, feeling the malaise of 01:18:07.115 --> 01:18:13.088 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:75% this sense of, you know, multidimensional surveillance. 01:18:13.155 --> 01:18:16.425 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% And -- and then, of course, they -- they 01:18:16.491 --> 01:18:24.766 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% adapted that and -- so -- so the short answer is, 01:18:24.833 --> 01:18:27.102 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% yes, and there are lots of interesting details there. 01:18:27.169 --> 01:18:29.771 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:35% But the short answer is yes. 01:18:29.838 --> 01:18:30.439 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Yes? 01:18:30.505 --> 01:18:36.078 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So when you talked earlier in your lecture about how 01:18:36.144 --> 01:18:38.313 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% this is my face, it's my right to my face, and I 01:18:38.380 --> 01:18:40.348 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% give people permission to use it or not, it sounded 01:18:40.415 --> 01:18:42.150 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% to me like you were describing an opt-in 01:18:42.217 --> 01:18:45.187 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% regime on the privacy side, in which a lot of 01:18:45.253 --> 01:18:47.989 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% countries have done that, and it hasn't changed 01:18:48.056 --> 01:18:50.592 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% consumer behavior. 01:18:50.659 --> 01:18:52.828 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:63% So how do you break that? 01:18:52.894 --> 01:18:56.598 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Not just about giving -- it cannot be just about 01:18:56.665 --> 01:18:59.434 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% giving permission, because we do it all the time when 01:18:59.501 --> 01:19:01.736 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% it comes to our data. 01:19:01.803 --> 01:19:02.404 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Yeah. 01:19:02.471 --> 01:19:08.510 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% Well, you see, you're in -- I just spent 01:19:08.577 --> 01:19:12.247 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% practically the last month in Europe, and, you know, 01:19:12.314 --> 01:19:15.283 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% you -- so you're on a website, and thanks to 01:19:15.350 --> 01:19:19.354 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% GDPR there's that box, and it says blah, blah, blah, 01:19:19.421 --> 01:19:22.657 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but then you 01:19:22.724 --> 01:19:27.762 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:78% still don't get to move the next step unless you agree. 01:19:27.829 --> 01:19:30.265 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So you're a little bit more informed, a lot more 01:19:30.332 --> 01:19:33.602 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% depressed, and then you're still clicking agree. 01:19:33.668 --> 01:19:39.975 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% So I've spent a lot of time in Brussels, 01:19:40.041 --> 01:19:41.676 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% you probably know the name Giovanni Buterelle, 01:19:41.743 --> 01:19:47.849 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% who was a colleague that I admired 01:19:47.916 --> 01:19:50.418 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% greatly, and we spent a lot of time together in 01:19:50.485 --> 01:19:53.622 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% these discussions, and we actually launched my book 01:19:53.688 --> 01:19:58.126 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% in Brussels in January, and a lot of folks there 01:19:58.193 --> 01:20:01.029 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% were members of European Parliament, you know, 01:20:01.096 --> 01:20:04.599 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% a lot of people who had worked on GDPR, and they 01:20:04.666 --> 01:20:08.069 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% wanted to hear that they've been working on 01:20:08.136 --> 01:20:12.607 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% this for so long that GDPR was the answer, time to 01:20:12.674 --> 01:20:15.277 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% pop the champagne, time to put our feet up, you know, 01:20:15.343 --> 01:20:17.412 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% we can relax for awhile. 01:20:17.479 --> 01:20:20.682 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% And I came in and said, GDPR is only the 01:20:20.749 --> 01:20:23.752 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% beginning, not the end, data ownership, data 01:20:23.818 --> 01:20:26.488 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% accessibility, data portability are not going 01:20:26.555 --> 01:20:30.825 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% to do us any good, for two reasons, number one, it 01:20:30.892 --> 01:20:33.929 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% only applies to the data we give them. 01:20:33.995 --> 01:20:37.632 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:80% Remember the trillions of data points ingested every hour? 01:20:37.699 --> 01:20:40.035 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% Tiny fraction of that is what we give them. 01:20:40.101 --> 01:20:42.137 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% Most of that is what they've hunted from us 01:20:42.204 --> 01:20:45.707 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:70% that we don't even know about, so that's number one. 01:20:45.774 --> 01:20:49.277 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Number two is, even if we give back what we gave 01:20:49.344 --> 01:20:53.648 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% them we're never going to get those six million 01:20:53.715 --> 01:20:56.985 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% predictions per second or what happens to them when 01:20:57.052 --> 01:21:00.255 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% they find their way into human futures markets and 01:21:00.322 --> 01:21:01.923 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:43% how they're used. 01:21:01.990 --> 01:21:05.193 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% We're never going to get those trillions of data 01:21:05.260 --> 01:21:07.429 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% points or insights into those training models, 01:21:07.495 --> 01:21:11.466 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% because that is the proprietary core, that's 01:21:11.533 --> 01:21:13.969 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% what's driving the value of the predictions, and 01:21:14.035 --> 01:21:19.007 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% that's what's driving the revenue streams out of 01:21:19.074 --> 01:21:21.142 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% these futures markets. 01:21:21.209 --> 01:21:25.313 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% So that's -- that's never coming to us. 01:21:25.380 --> 01:21:27.182 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:58% And Giovanni knew that. 01:21:27.249 --> 01:21:31.286 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And at the end we have this big illustrious panel 01:21:31.353 --> 01:21:35.724 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% introducing the book and so forth, he was the 01:21:35.790 --> 01:21:39.961 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% moderator, and at the end he surprised everybody in 01:21:40.028 --> 01:21:47.869 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% this vast hall, and he asked for the mic, and he 01:21:47.936 --> 01:21:50.205 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% -- he spoke to the room, unscripted, and he said -- 01:21:50.272 --> 01:21:54.542 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% paraphrasing now -- we thought we were at the 01:21:54.609 --> 01:21:56.478 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% frontier but we're only at the beginning. 01:21:56.544 --> 01:22:00.215 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And we now understand what the -- what the frontier 01:22:00.282 --> 01:22:04.085 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% really is, because we're moving into a situation 01:22:04.152 --> 01:22:09.591 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% where, you know, data is -- knowledge is used for 01:22:09.658 --> 01:22:15.397 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% power, we have to contest the very most fundamental 01:22:15.463 --> 01:22:18.366 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:75% mechanisms that produce these data in the first place. 01:22:18.433 --> 01:22:23.705 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And the fact that they are being used in markets that 01:22:23.772 --> 01:22:26.007 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% actually fund our own domination. 01:22:26.074 --> 01:22:30.512 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So you know, it was a very quiet hall that day. 01:22:30.578 --> 01:22:36.151 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% But I think the point here is that as I move around 01:22:36.217 --> 01:22:41.890 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% the world, talking to lawmakers here, but even 01:22:41.956 --> 01:22:44.559 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% more so in Europe, where I have more experience in 01:22:44.626 --> 01:22:52.400 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% that -- in that zone, you know, people are 01:22:52.467 --> 01:22:57.739 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% understanding that we've only just begun and that 01:22:57.806 --> 01:23:02.010 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% notice and consent is just as empty a set of 01:23:02.077 --> 01:23:08.350 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% mechanisms under GDPR as it -- as it is here with 01:23:08.416 --> 01:23:11.686 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% our kabuki notice and consent operations. 01:23:11.753 --> 01:23:18.059 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And that as far as GDPR goes everything right now 01:23:18.126 --> 01:23:19.728 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:65% depends on the plaintiffs. 01:23:19.794 --> 01:23:22.130 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Everything right now depends on how people in 01:23:22.197 --> 01:23:25.467 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% communities, you know, take up the regulations 01:23:25.533 --> 01:23:28.269 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% that are there and bring them before the courts and 01:23:28.336 --> 01:23:30.538 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% how the courts build on them and what sense they 01:23:30.605 --> 01:23:32.273 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% make of them, right? 01:23:32.340 --> 01:23:34.242 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% But ultimately we're going to have to go further. 01:23:34.309 --> 01:23:37.545 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% Maybe some of you saw Margrethe Vestager 01:23:37.612 --> 01:23:41.683 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% interview last week, where, you know, she's 01:23:41.750 --> 01:23:44.919 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% coming into her second fifth year term as the 01:23:44.986 --> 01:23:49.090 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% competition Czar of the EU commission, and she was 01:23:49.157 --> 01:23:51.693 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:70% interviewed -- she did a big press thing last week, and 01:23:51.760 --> 01:23:55.196 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% she said, you know, antitrust is an important 01:23:55.263 --> 01:23:58.600 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% tool in our toolkit, but we -- we've also got to 01:23:58.666 --> 01:24:00.602 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% understand surveillance capitalism and we've got 01:24:00.668 --> 01:24:03.004 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% to figure out how we're going to deal with that. 01:24:03.071 --> 01:24:06.708 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So I think there's lot of movement there and a lot 01:24:06.775 --> 01:24:09.711 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% of understanding that certainly notice and 01:24:09.778 --> 01:24:12.180 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% consent in any way it currently exists on planet 01:24:12.247 --> 01:24:14.048 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Earth is not going to get us where we need to go. 01:24:25.059 --> 01:24:29.364 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So we mentioned this idea that using data with the 01:24:29.431 --> 01:24:31.599 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% human experience to improve product's quality 01:24:31.666 --> 01:24:33.435 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% of consumer experience, is something that you 01:24:33.501 --> 01:24:35.069 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% recognize is there, but then you kind of crafted 01:24:35.136 --> 01:24:35.937 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% that and didn't come back to it. 01:24:36.004 --> 01:24:37.605 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Yeah. 01:24:37.672 --> 01:24:40.341 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So I guess the question is if the proposal is to 01:24:40.408 --> 01:24:43.044 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% effectively ban markets from commodatizing human 01:24:43.111 --> 01:24:48.149 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% experience would -- would you -- is there a way that 01:24:48.216 --> 01:24:51.986 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% you could break it off, and at least capture the 01:24:52.053 --> 01:24:55.256 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% benefits to bring products and services that might 01:24:55.323 --> 01:24:58.560 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% come if you allow companies to rely in some 01:24:58.626 --> 01:25:00.995 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% form on that, or would it be, look, we have to ban 01:25:01.062 --> 01:25:02.897 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% it outright because ultimately the benefits of 01:25:02.964 --> 01:25:04.966 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% doing so would outweigh the costs? 01:25:05.033 --> 01:25:06.801 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 01:25:06.868 --> 01:25:09.904 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So I -- I brought this to show just in case there's 01:25:09.971 --> 01:25:13.074 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% an opportunity. 01:25:13.141 --> 01:25:16.344 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:80% So this is an expensive piece of advertising real estate. 01:25:16.411 --> 01:25:19.080 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% It's the back cover of New Yorker magazine. 01:25:19.147 --> 01:25:22.183 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% And it's a Google ad. 01:25:22.250 --> 01:25:25.553 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And it says, at the top, helping you, and at the 01:25:25.620 --> 01:25:28.823 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% bottom, every day, and in between are 17 things that 01:25:28.890 --> 01:25:31.793 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% Google is doing to help us, okay? 01:25:31.860 --> 01:25:34.629 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Lest you think I'm biased, shout out a number. 01:25:34.696 --> 01:25:36.030 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Give me a number between one and seventeen. 01:25:36.097 --> 01:25:37.198 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Six. 01:25:37.265 --> 01:25:41.769 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:70% One, two, three, four, five, six, unsend that email 01:25:41.836 --> 01:25:44.439 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:58% Give me another number. 01:25:44.506 --> 01:25:45.607 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:08% 12. 01:25:45.673 --> 01:25:46.774 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:08% 12? 01:25:46.841 --> 01:25:46.941 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:13% Okay. 01:25:47.008 --> 01:25:49.344 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, 01:25:49.410 --> 01:25:55.316 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% nine, ten, eleven, twelve, move that meeting. 01:25:55.383 --> 01:25:58.052 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:43% What is my point? 01:25:58.119 --> 01:26:02.390 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% Cancel that meeting, do the floss, take better 01:26:02.457 --> 01:26:06.661 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% pictures at night, find a Thai place open now, name 01:26:06.728 --> 01:26:10.064 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% the 21st president, 17 reasons all like that. 01:26:10.131 --> 01:26:13.902 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So here's Google, on the most expensive piece of 01:26:13.968 --> 01:26:16.738 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% real estate, telling us all the things that it's 01:26:16.804 --> 01:26:17.972 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% doing for us. 01:26:18.039 --> 01:26:20.141 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And they're all completely trivial unless you're -- I 01:26:20.208 --> 01:26:21.976 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% don't know, does anyone still use the word yuppie? 01:26:22.043 --> 01:26:24.379 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Unless you're a yuppie living in San Francisco, 01:26:24.445 --> 01:26:27.882 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% riding the Google bus, most of this is completely 01:26:27.949 --> 01:26:30.218 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% immaterial, right? 01:26:30.285 --> 01:26:34.489 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So my point about right at the beginning about the 01:26:34.556 --> 01:26:36.891 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% digital versus the economic logic is that we 01:26:36.958 --> 01:26:40.028 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% deserve the digital, as individuals. 01:26:40.094 --> 01:26:43.998 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% As a society we deserve big data. 01:26:44.065 --> 01:26:46.401 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% What should we be using big data for? 01:26:46.467 --> 01:26:49.671 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% We should be using big data to solve the climate 01:26:49.737 --> 01:26:54.509 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% crisis, to figure out how to eliminate -- evaporate 01:26:54.576 --> 01:26:56.978 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% all those little plastic particles that are now 01:26:57.045 --> 01:27:00.882 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% even in arctic snow, to cure cancer. 01:27:00.949 --> 01:27:03.718 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% This is what it was supposed to be for. 01:27:03.785 --> 01:27:08.423 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% I assure you, all of the data to support what I'm 01:27:08.489 --> 01:27:10.391 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% about to say is in this book. 01:27:10.458 --> 01:27:14.228 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Right now big data is wholly owned and operated 01:27:14.295 --> 01:27:16.464 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% by surveillance capitalism. 01:27:16.531 --> 01:27:19.867 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% There are 10,000 data scientists on Earth who 01:27:19.934 --> 01:27:22.437 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:65% know how to do this stuff. 01:27:22.503 --> 01:27:25.139 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Most of them now are going to work for the tech 01:27:25.206 --> 01:27:27.241 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% sector or already work there. 01:27:27.308 --> 01:27:30.078 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% You can't even sign out for a computer science 01:27:30.144 --> 01:27:32.046 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% course now in most colleges and universities 01:27:32.113 --> 01:27:36.317 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% unless you are a declared major and even then they 01:27:36.384 --> 01:27:39.153 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% have to ration courses because there is a brain 01:27:39.220 --> 01:27:43.424 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% drain in our country and in Europe because all the 01:27:43.491 --> 01:27:46.828 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% computer scientists are going to work for private 01:27:46.894 --> 01:27:49.831 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% companies to do this. 01:27:49.897 --> 01:27:56.137 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So how do we get back so that we get to have what 01:27:56.204 --> 01:27:57.138 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:28% we deserve? 01:27:57.205 --> 01:28:00.475 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% We are citizens of a democratic society moving 01:28:00.541 --> 01:28:05.913 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% into the third decade of the digital century. 01:28:05.980 --> 01:28:09.751 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% And this is the best they've got for us? 01:28:09.817 --> 01:28:13.154 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% In the meantime, their market capitalization, you 01:28:13.221 --> 01:28:16.124 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% put together the four top surveillance capitalists, 01:28:16.190 --> 01:28:19.193 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% Google, Facebook, Microsoft, and Amazon, 01:28:19.260 --> 01:28:22.330 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% what their market capitalization in the 01:28:22.397 --> 01:28:26.734 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% trillions, over a trillion, I mean, you see, right? 01:28:26.801 --> 01:28:30.672 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And these -- these markets are extremely lucrative, 01:28:30.738 --> 01:28:32.140 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:15% right? 01:28:32.206 --> 01:28:35.810 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% They have suffocated competition. 01:28:35.877 --> 01:28:41.649 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And this was supposed to be the new Guttenberg 01:28:41.716 --> 01:28:45.486 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% century, this was supposed to be the century of 01:28:45.553 --> 01:28:48.022 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% intense democratization and empowerment of the 01:28:48.089 --> 01:28:50.992 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% individual on the strength of the digital. 01:28:51.059 --> 01:28:53.995 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And instead we have asymmetries of knowledge 01:28:54.062 --> 01:28:57.699 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% and power that literally throw us back to a kind of 01:28:57.765 --> 01:28:58.700 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% futile pattern. 01:28:58.766 --> 01:29:04.972 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So bottom line is, I think we can handle this. 01:29:05.039 --> 01:29:10.678 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Number one, because -- I -- I write about what I 01:29:10.745 --> 01:29:12.980 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% call the behavioral value reinvestment cycle, the 01:29:13.047 --> 01:29:15.850 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% very -- before Google discovered surveillance 01:29:15.917 --> 01:29:19.020 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% capitalism they took data off what people were doing 01:29:19.087 --> 01:29:21.422 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% online and they used it to improve search. 01:29:21.489 --> 01:29:22.957 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% They used it to invent translate. 01:29:23.024 --> 01:29:25.927 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% They used it to invent auto complete. 01:29:25.993 --> 01:29:28.329 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% They used it to improve their products and 01:29:28.396 --> 01:29:29.330 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% services, right? 01:29:29.397 --> 01:29:30.331 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% That's great. 01:29:30.398 --> 01:29:32.633 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% That's what every company should be doing. 01:29:32.700 --> 01:29:34.869 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% But then, when they discovered behavioral 01:29:34.936 --> 01:29:37.972 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% surplus, right, that behavioral value 01:29:38.039 --> 01:29:40.942 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% reinvestment cycle became second fiddle to this 01:29:41.008 --> 01:29:43.177 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% massive new operation. 01:29:43.244 --> 01:29:47.448 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And that's where -- when you -- you know, right 01:29:47.515 --> 01:29:49.851 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% now, 87 percent of Google's revenues and 98 01:29:49.917 --> 01:29:52.386 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% percent of Facebook's revenues come from 01:29:52.453 --> 01:29:56.057 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% behavioral microtargeting, online targeted 01:29:56.124 --> 01:29:58.059 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% advertising, right? 01:29:58.126 --> 01:30:00.328 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:75% They all come from this logic I just described to you. 01:30:00.394 --> 01:30:03.731 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And now that improving their -- their products 01:30:03.798 --> 01:30:08.002 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% and services is simply like a lost leader to get 01:30:08.069 --> 01:30:10.972 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% the behavioral surplus flowing through the supply 01:30:11.038 --> 01:30:14.809 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% chains into the pipes into the factory into the markets. 01:30:14.876 --> 01:30:15.910 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% You see what I'm saying? 01:30:15.977 --> 01:30:18.646 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So it's not an end in itself and that's why it's 01:30:18.713 --> 01:30:23.151 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% become a market failure because it's not giving us 01:30:23.217 --> 01:30:24.552 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% what we really need. 01:30:28.222 --> 01:30:31.793 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:80% When you mentioned market failure it has a significance -- 01:30:31.859 --> 01:30:32.794 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Yes. 01:30:32.860 --> 01:30:34.896 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% To a room like this. 01:30:34.962 --> 01:30:35.897 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:10% Yes. 01:30:35.963 --> 01:30:39.300 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So market failure usually involves, you know, some 01:30:39.367 --> 01:30:42.270 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% kind of remedial action, maybe not necessarily 01:30:42.336 --> 01:30:43.938 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:35% antitrust, but other things. 01:30:44.005 --> 01:30:48.910 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Are there examples in other jurisdictions, you 01:30:48.976 --> 01:30:52.947 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% mentioned the GDPR, but are there other countries, 01:30:53.014 --> 01:30:57.819 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% regions that are trying to address this in a 01:30:57.885 --> 01:31:01.622 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% different way, either giving individuals some 01:31:01.689 --> 01:31:06.761 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% kind of property right to it, or are there solutions 01:31:06.828 --> 01:31:10.064 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% other than, you know, banning the market for 01:31:10.131 --> 01:31:15.002 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% this, that's you and your book or since then have 01:31:15.069 --> 01:31:16.904 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:58% proposed or considered. 01:31:16.971 --> 01:31:19.740 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Well, Makan, I am keenly interested in the answer 01:31:19.807 --> 01:31:20.975 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:43% to this question. 01:31:21.042 --> 01:31:22.944 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And I'm trying to understand that myself. 01:31:23.010 --> 01:31:28.783 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% My travels and, you know, I've also been connected 01:31:28.850 --> 01:31:30.751 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% with the international grant committee, I think 01:31:30.818 --> 01:31:33.588 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% -- and you and I corresponded a little bit 01:31:33.654 --> 01:31:38.292 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% about that -- but, you know, I was at the Ottawa 01:31:38.359 --> 01:31:40.695 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% meeting, and it was interesting at the Ottawa 01:31:40.761 --> 01:31:45.533 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% meeting I came there thinking I would be one 01:31:45.600 --> 01:31:49.403 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% witness among others, and I would, like, have to 01:31:49.470 --> 01:31:51.239 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% pitch this point of view and get people to 01:31:51.305 --> 01:31:53.841 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% understand it, and how do I get people ramped up 01:31:53.908 --> 01:31:55.509 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% quickly. 01:31:55.576 --> 01:31:58.779 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% When I got there I was surprised to find that 01:31:58.846 --> 01:32:01.482 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% almost every member of the committee had a copy of my 01:32:01.549 --> 01:32:04.318 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% book and most of them had thousands of little 01:32:04.385 --> 01:32:06.520 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% Post-It notes sticking out, little dog-eared 01:32:06.587 --> 01:32:09.123 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% pages -- something that I always tell my children to 01:32:09.190 --> 01:32:11.826 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% do when they read a book so you know it's really read. 01:32:11.893 --> 01:32:17.932 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So surveillance capitalism is a framework. 01:32:17.999 --> 01:32:21.302 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% I was the last witness to testify, because my name 01:32:21.369 --> 01:32:24.405 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% begins with Z, and everybody else was talking 01:32:24.472 --> 01:32:26.307 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% about surveillance capitalism before I even 01:32:26.374 --> 01:32:27.241 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% opened my mouth. 01:32:27.308 --> 01:32:32.680 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:75% So this had become a framework in those deliberations. 01:32:32.747 --> 01:32:35.950 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And -- and, you know, obviously I was able to 01:32:36.017 --> 01:32:38.119 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% help build on that and deepen that and so forth. 01:32:38.185 --> 01:32:43.958 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% But, you know, this is -- this is the -- what I see 01:32:44.025 --> 01:32:44.959 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% happening in Europe. 01:32:45.026 --> 01:32:49.130 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% I can't say that the -- the solutions are there 01:32:49.196 --> 01:32:53.501 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% yet, that people know exactly what to do, but I 01:32:53.567 --> 01:32:56.170 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% can say that the understanding is really 01:32:56.237 --> 01:32:57.505 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% growing. 01:32:57.571 --> 01:32:59.974 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So when -- you know, when the committee first met in 01:33:00.041 --> 01:33:02.910 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% January, in London, and then they published their 01:33:02.977 --> 01:33:05.246 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% report authored by Damian Collins, who is the 01:33:05.313 --> 01:33:10.718 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% British MP, you may recall the headline, you know, 01:33:10.785 --> 01:33:13.521 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% calling Facebook digital -- digital gangster. 01:33:13.587 --> 01:33:16.958 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And that, itself, is very important, because that 01:33:17.024 --> 01:33:21.395 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% came out in, like, February 2019, calling -- 01:33:21.462 --> 01:33:24.532 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% calling these guys digital gangsters. 01:33:24.598 --> 01:33:29.937 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% A year earlier, 2018, I had the almost final draft 01:33:30.004 --> 01:33:32.573 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% of my manuscript, and I had to give it to my 01:33:32.640 --> 01:33:35.743 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% publisher to review, for the legal department to 01:33:35.810 --> 01:33:38.012 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:18% review. 01:33:38.079 --> 01:33:41.015 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And they read all the 700 pages and they came back 01:33:41.082 --> 01:33:43.751 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% with one thing they wanted me to do, they wanted me 01:33:43.818 --> 01:33:49.323 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% to take the word theft or thief out of anywhere it 01:33:49.390 --> 01:33:51.325 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% appeared in the manuscript, because they 01:33:51.392 --> 01:33:53.027 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:63% were scared by that word. 01:33:53.094 --> 01:33:57.131 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% One year later, Damian is calling Facebook digital 01:33:57.198 --> 01:33:58.966 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% gangsters. 01:33:59.033 --> 01:34:01.836 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% So that's a big leap in one year. 01:34:01.902 --> 01:34:03.904 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% And that's pretty much down to Chris Wylie, and 01:34:03.971 --> 01:34:07.908 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Alexander Nicks, and all those bad boys, and some 01:34:07.975 --> 01:34:09.143 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:35% of the things that they did. 01:34:09.210 --> 01:34:11.779 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And of course Chris coming -- coming back to the 01:34:11.846 --> 01:34:14.782 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% fold, prodigal son, as a whistle blower. 01:34:14.849 --> 01:34:20.921 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So I feel like from my vantage point, I've been 01:34:20.988 --> 01:34:24.925 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% on the road for 10 months now, from my vantage point 01:34:24.992 --> 01:34:29.597 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% I know two things, one is that audiences in every 01:34:29.663 --> 01:34:33.134 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% city and every country that I've been in I begin 01:34:33.200 --> 01:34:35.436 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% every event -- is this interesting to you? 01:34:35.503 --> 01:34:36.170 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% I don't know. 01:34:36.237 --> 01:34:38.572 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% I'll tell you anyway -- is, just so you know, what 01:34:38.639 --> 01:34:40.408 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% the public -- what's happening with the public, 01:34:40.474 --> 01:34:43.611 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% every single event I begin in exactly the same way, I 01:34:43.677 --> 01:34:47.281 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% say, it's a sunny day or it's a Saturday night, why 01:34:47.348 --> 01:34:48.449 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% are you here with me? 01:34:48.516 --> 01:34:50.618 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% What made you come here? 01:34:50.684 --> 01:34:51.085 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% Think about it. 01:34:51.152 --> 01:34:53.754 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% Reduce it to one word and shout it out. 01:34:53.821 --> 01:34:57.491 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And so they do that and I get somebody to write it 01:34:57.558 --> 01:35:02.596 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% down, I get the same list of words in every city in 01:35:02.663 --> 01:35:05.699 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% every country, starting in January, ending two days 01:35:05.766 --> 01:35:08.769 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% ago, last time I did this was two days ago, in 01:35:08.836 --> 01:35:14.909 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Chicago, and it's the same list of words, anxiety, 01:35:14.975 --> 01:35:21.449 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% fear, control, freedom, democracy, autonomy, 01:35:21.515 --> 01:35:26.587 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% malaise, revolution, resistance, law, 01:35:26.654 --> 01:35:29.290 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% regulation, same list of words. 01:35:29.356 --> 01:35:32.593 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% In fact, if you don't believe me, I carry it 01:35:32.660 --> 01:35:33.928 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:58% around in my book here. 01:35:33.994 --> 01:35:38.032 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% I can show you what people have written down, same 01:35:38.099 --> 01:35:39.033 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:35% list of words. 01:35:39.100 --> 01:35:44.605 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So one thing I know is that they call us users, 01:35:44.672 --> 01:35:49.677 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% like an anonymous group that is only defined in 01:35:49.743 --> 01:35:51.912 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% relationship to the mechanisms of this 01:35:51.979 --> 01:35:53.247 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% economic logic. 01:35:53.314 --> 01:35:56.584 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% But people are no longer experiencing themselves 01:35:56.650 --> 01:35:57.952 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% that way. 01:35:58.018 --> 01:36:01.522 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% People are discovering their shared not only 01:36:01.589 --> 01:36:05.893 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% economic but -- but social and political and even 01:36:05.960 --> 01:36:11.899 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% psychological interests, and coming together out of 01:36:11.966 --> 01:36:14.568 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% that, that -- that -- those interests, and 01:36:14.635 --> 01:36:17.404 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% looking for how to name it and how to understand it, 01:36:17.471 --> 01:36:21.742 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% and wanting their governments, wanting their 01:36:21.809 --> 01:36:25.379 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% democratic institutions, wanting their lawmakers to 01:36:25.446 --> 01:36:26.714 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% take action. 01:36:26.780 --> 01:36:28.816 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% This is not the future that we want. 01:36:28.883 --> 01:36:33.587 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% The experimental zones for economies of action, it 01:36:33.654 --> 01:36:36.924 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% began online, moved to Pokemon-Go. 01:36:36.991 --> 01:36:40.594 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:70% The next phase of that experimentation is the city. 01:36:40.661 --> 01:36:43.931 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% And that work is already underway. 01:36:43.998 --> 01:36:46.133 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% They used to call it the Google city, now they're 01:36:46.200 --> 01:36:47.268 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:58% afraid to call it that. 01:36:47.334 --> 01:36:48.936 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And so now they just call it the Smart city. 01:36:49.003 --> 01:36:51.939 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% And now they're in a contest right now with 01:36:52.006 --> 01:36:53.941 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% many of the citizens right now in Toronto trying to 01:36:54.008 --> 01:36:57.278 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% get the Toronto waterfront as the first exemplar of 01:36:57.344 --> 01:36:59.446 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% the Google city. 01:36:59.513 --> 01:37:02.883 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And you look, you read those proposals in detail 01:37:02.950 --> 01:37:05.553 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% -- as unfortunately that I have done -- and 01:37:05.619 --> 01:37:11.225 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% they're everything that I just said to you in spades. 01:37:11.292 --> 01:37:14.461 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% So -- so this is moving. 01:37:14.528 --> 01:37:19.466 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% And the end game here is really substituting 01:37:19.533 --> 01:37:24.371 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% computational governance for democratic governance. 01:37:24.438 --> 01:37:27.241 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% This is where we're going, computational governance, 01:37:27.308 --> 01:37:30.377 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% with a view to commercial outcomes, to democratic 01:37:30.444 --> 01:37:31.478 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:28% governance. 01:37:31.545 --> 01:37:33.080 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% And the city is the first effort. 01:37:33.147 --> 01:37:36.784 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% So I know that the public is on the move. 01:37:36.850 --> 01:37:40.487 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And the other thing is that I feel like lawmakers 01:37:40.554 --> 01:37:43.924 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% are engaging in a discussion that has not 01:37:43.991 --> 01:37:45.659 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% been engaged in for 20 years. 01:37:45.726 --> 01:37:50.130 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:70% And from where I sit, the solutions are not clear yet. 01:37:50.197 --> 01:37:52.433 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% There's this piece of legislation and that bill 01:37:52.499 --> 01:37:55.002 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% and this bill and that bill, but so far I haven't 01:37:55.069 --> 01:37:59.673 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% seen anything that is trenchant enough to move 01:37:59.740 --> 01:38:03.711 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% in this direction, but that things are happening 01:38:03.777 --> 01:38:06.714 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% where they have not been happening is undoubtedly 01:38:06.780 --> 01:38:09.783 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% the case, not only here but in Europe. 01:38:16.590 --> 01:38:19.059 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Do you see the solution as needing to be something 01:38:19.126 --> 01:38:22.663 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% that's an international effort among many people? 01:38:22.730 --> 01:38:26.233 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% Because I know -- I mean, who's the US put our 01:38:26.300 --> 01:38:30.504 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% values on other nations and whatever, and so what 01:38:30.571 --> 01:38:32.573 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% about nations that are aren't democracies and 01:38:32.640 --> 01:38:35.576 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% aren't, you know, subscribers to that form 01:38:35.643 --> 01:38:38.912 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% of government, and I know the GDPR has issues with 01:38:38.979 --> 01:38:41.915 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% American companies complaining that they also 01:38:41.982 --> 01:38:44.251 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% need to put those click-ins, because the 01:38:44.318 --> 01:38:46.920 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% person in EUX's website, they would have to do that 01:38:46.987 --> 01:38:47.554 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:20% as well. 01:38:47.621 --> 01:38:50.924 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So I guess how do you see that international level 01:38:50.991 --> 01:38:53.594 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% working out to actually make this happen? 01:38:53.661 --> 01:38:59.433 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% Well, a purely international new 01:38:59.500 --> 01:39:03.604 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% framework is unlikely, because part of the globe 01:39:03.671 --> 01:39:06.540 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% consists of China and other authoritarian 01:39:06.607 --> 01:39:11.045 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% countries who have a very different relationship to 01:39:11.111 --> 01:39:16.250 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% what I've just described to you in China, the state. 01:39:16.317 --> 01:39:20.254 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Obviously China is not a democratic civilization, 01:39:20.321 --> 01:39:23.991 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% never had democracy, not -- you know, so we are -- 01:39:24.058 --> 01:39:27.127 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% we're talking about apples and oranges or what's 01:39:27.194 --> 01:39:30.564 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% further away than that, apples and porcupines or 01:39:30.631 --> 01:39:32.566 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:50% something like that. 01:39:32.633 --> 01:39:38.238 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So you know, in China the decision has been seeing 01:39:38.305 --> 01:39:41.709 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% this tremendous knowledge and power, specifically 01:39:41.775 --> 01:39:44.912 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% instrumentarian power coming out of the market 01:39:44.978 --> 01:39:49.316 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% sector in China, and deciding that that power 01:39:49.383 --> 01:39:52.920 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% is too big to be wasted on commercial outcomes, and 01:39:52.986 --> 01:39:55.923 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% essentially annexing it to the state, currently in an 01:39:55.989 --> 01:39:59.259 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% experimental phase, again, social credit system and 01:39:59.326 --> 01:39:59.927 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% so forth. 01:39:59.993 --> 01:40:07.267 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% But -- so the idea that you know -- the idea is 01:40:07.334 --> 01:40:14.041 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:80% not to do -- compete with China, to do what China is doing. 01:40:14.108 --> 01:40:20.280 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% The idea is to found a democratic alternative to 01:40:20.347 --> 01:40:26.453 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% a future which is a future that is very congenial to 01:40:26.520 --> 01:40:27.621 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% the surveillance capitalists. 01:40:27.688 --> 01:40:29.957 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And that is a future where they get to continue to do 01:40:30.023 --> 01:40:32.292 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% what they're doing and process the knowledge and 01:40:32.359 --> 01:40:33.227 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% power that they produce. 01:40:33.293 --> 01:40:39.133 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And also the state uses it for its ends and means, 01:40:39.199 --> 01:40:40.300 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:15% right? 01:40:40.367 --> 01:40:42.970 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And that -- so I mean that is essentially in China 01:40:43.036 --> 01:40:46.306 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% we see the conflation of market and state, 01:40:46.373 --> 01:40:48.308 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% the conflation of instrumentation and power 01:40:48.375 --> 01:40:49.042 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% and state power. 01:40:49.109 --> 01:40:55.315 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% That is not the future that we are anticipating 01:40:55.382 --> 01:40:56.216 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% as a democracy. 01:40:56.283 --> 01:41:00.587 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% That is not the future that we -- not only that 01:41:00.654 --> 01:41:02.623 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% we want but that is the future that all of us 01:41:02.689 --> 01:41:06.393 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% should be mobilized to prevent, because that is 01:41:06.460 --> 01:41:07.761 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:43% an ugly end game. 01:41:07.828 --> 01:41:09.930 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And that's when Orwell does come back into the 01:41:09.997 --> 01:41:14.935 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% picture, not quite as -- as the old big brother, 01:41:15.002 --> 01:41:18.439 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% but certainly a new kind of totalitarianism. 01:41:18.505 --> 01:41:22.543 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So that -- so what is the alternative to that? 01:41:22.609 --> 01:41:26.113 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% Right now I -- I have a folder, I left my 01:41:26.180 --> 01:41:29.116 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% briefcase in the car, but I have a folder like this 01:41:29.183 --> 01:41:35.956 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% of all these examples of how we already, here in 01:41:36.023 --> 01:41:40.461 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% our country, are producing examples of this sort of, 01:41:40.527 --> 01:41:43.297 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% you know, very dangerous market state conflation, 01:41:43.363 --> 01:41:44.998 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% you know? 01:41:45.065 --> 01:41:52.306 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% So it's -- it's not -- it's not out of the 01:41:52.372 --> 01:41:56.977 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% question that it could happen here in our county. 01:41:57.044 --> 01:41:59.980 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So this is something that we have to understand and 01:42:00.047 --> 01:42:01.915 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% we have -- and we have to be -- so it's not going to 01:42:01.982 --> 01:42:02.916 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% be a global solution. 01:42:02.983 --> 01:42:07.921 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% But it could be a democratic solution that 01:42:07.988 --> 01:42:12.326 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% will be an alternative and a beacon in the face of 01:42:12.392 --> 01:42:19.933 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% authoritarian regimes that annex these powers to 01:42:20.000 --> 01:42:21.168 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:38% their total statistic aims. 01:42:24.171 --> 01:42:26.607 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And where do you think everybody's going to want 01:42:26.673 --> 01:42:27.674 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% to live? I mean. 01:42:30.844 --> 01:42:33.380 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% How about the philosophical comments, 01:42:33.447 --> 01:42:36.817 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% one I wonder, aren't many of these companies 01:42:36.884 --> 01:42:38.452 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% actually not profitable? 01:42:38.519 --> 01:42:41.388 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% So I'm wondering what you see as the role of 01:42:41.455 --> 01:42:44.291 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% financial market, for example, in 2000 you had 01:42:44.358 --> 01:42:45.959 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% companies with vast revenue growth and 01:42:46.026 --> 01:42:51.031 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% earnings with financial market reckoning similarly 01:42:51.098 --> 01:42:54.134 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% disinvestment campaigns, whose companies were not 01:42:54.201 --> 01:42:57.371 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% aligned with our values, tobacco and other products 01:42:57.437 --> 01:43:01.909 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% along those lines, and third, I wonder if there's 01:43:01.975 --> 01:43:02.910 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% potentially a distortive effect -- 01:43:02.976 --> 01:43:06.113 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% I'm having trouble hearing you. 01:43:06.179 --> 01:43:09.116 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% I'm wondering if there's a potentially distortive 01:43:09.182 --> 01:43:11.585 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:45% effect with anthropomorphizing 01:43:11.652 --> 01:43:15.589 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% corporate behaviors, using words like theft and 01:43:15.656 --> 01:43:20.093 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% punishment, where I think is maybe incentives and 01:43:20.160 --> 01:43:22.262 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% disincentives would more accurately describe some 01:43:22.329 --> 01:43:22.930 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% of this conduct. 01:43:22.996 --> 01:43:28.936 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% Indeed, I think incentives is a very apropos word. 01:43:29.002 --> 01:43:33.273 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% I think when we talk about disrupting human futures 01:43:33.340 --> 01:43:36.610 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% markets we're talking about it eliminating the 01:43:36.677 --> 01:43:39.780 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% incentives that drive the surveillance dividends. 01:43:39.846 --> 01:43:42.950 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So that certainly is a language that I embrace. 01:43:43.016 --> 01:43:47.955 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% As far as behavior modification regimes go, 01:43:48.021 --> 01:43:50.457 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% you know, behavior modifications is scheduled 01:43:50.524 --> 01:43:52.626 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% of reinforcements and includes rewards and 01:43:52.693 --> 01:43:53.360 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% punishments. 01:43:53.427 --> 01:43:56.296 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% So that's kind of why I use those languages. 01:43:56.363 --> 01:44:00.033 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% And this language, for example, is familiar to 01:44:00.100 --> 01:44:03.737 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% the insurance companies, their own materials use 01:44:03.804 --> 01:44:05.072 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:55% that kind of language. 01:44:05.138 --> 01:44:06.907 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% As far as anthropomorphizing the 01:44:06.974 --> 01:44:07.908 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% companies? 01:44:07.975 --> 01:44:11.745 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% I completedly agree, which is why I'm stressing, this is an 01:44:11.812 --> 01:44:14.581 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% economic logic and no matter what we think about 01:44:14.648 --> 01:44:18.585 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% individual companies or individual executives 01:44:18.652 --> 01:44:22.422 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:78% it would be wrong to reduce the problem to either of those. 01:44:22.489 --> 01:44:25.759 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% This is an economic logic that now runs across. 01:44:25.826 --> 01:44:28.662 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% And I'm sure many of the people that are 01:44:28.729 --> 01:44:30.931 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% participating in this economics logic are 01:44:30.998 --> 01:44:34.101 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% fantastic people who are waiting for an opportunity 01:44:34.167 --> 01:44:38.438 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% to be liberated from the necessity of producing a 01:44:38.505 --> 01:44:40.941 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% surveillance dividend, whether they're already 01:44:41.008 --> 01:44:44.111 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% doing it or whether they are on the road doing it, 01:44:44.177 --> 01:44:47.447 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% trying to do it and being revenue positive and, 01:44:47.514 --> 01:44:50.017 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% you know, not yet making profit. 01:44:55.355 --> 01:44:56.857 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% So have I exhausted you? 01:45:04.798 --> 01:45:07.401 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% This is sort of similar to something that was brought 01:45:07.467 --> 01:45:09.970 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% up early on, and I wonder, these companies, as you 01:45:10.037 --> 01:45:12.406 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% point out, several many of them have trillion dollar 01:45:12.472 --> 01:45:19.913 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% capital and then tons of shareholders, and we have 01:45:19.980 --> 01:45:24.751 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% our TSP funds, and I'm sure many people's 401(k)s 01:45:24.818 --> 01:45:27.754 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% are invested in these companies, and if you do 01:45:27.821 --> 01:45:31.925 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% knock off some of their valuation I'm just 01:45:31.992 --> 01:45:36.930 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% wondering that their incentive is to do a lot 01:45:36.997 --> 01:45:40.734 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% of lobbying along the lines of you're going to 01:45:40.801 --> 01:45:44.271 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:43% impact everybody, not just us. 01:45:44.337 --> 01:45:51.945 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% Oh, yeah, I mean, you know, none of this is 01:45:52.012 --> 01:45:55.215 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% going to happen without a fight, that's for sure. 01:45:55.282 --> 01:45:59.953 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% We're talking about a lot of capital, here, but 01:46:00.020 --> 01:46:05.325 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% we're also talking about a lot of force on the other 01:46:05.392 --> 01:46:08.562 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% side that may not be well represented by lobbyist 01:46:08.628 --> 01:46:12.733 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% right now, not only the public, but many, many 01:46:12.799 --> 01:46:22.409 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% other businesses that -- that are -- that are not, 01:46:22.476 --> 01:46:27.247 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% you know -- the businesses that want to proceed 01:46:27.314 --> 01:46:30.016 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% differently are not organized together the way 01:46:30.083 --> 01:46:33.920 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% businesses that want to keep expanding the 01:46:33.987 --> 01:46:36.923 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% surveillance dividend have organized, right? 01:46:36.990 --> 01:46:39.659 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% So we've got -- we've got a gap there. 01:46:39.726 --> 01:46:45.699 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% I've had conversations with some very large 01:46:45.766 --> 01:46:49.936 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:78% corporations who are not in the surveillance capitalists 01:46:50.003 --> 01:46:54.407 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% game, and I am very hopeful that they will get 01:46:54.474 --> 01:46:57.444 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% themselves better organized and they will be 01:46:57.511 --> 01:46:59.946 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% walking around on Capitol Hill and knocking on 01:47:00.013 --> 01:47:02.883 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% people's doors the way the other lobbyists are. 01:47:02.949 --> 01:47:07.387 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% So I think, again, this is part of their historical 01:47:07.454 --> 01:47:10.891 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% lag that we're working on, I also think that we're 01:47:10.957 --> 01:47:16.897 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% increasingly going to see citizens caring about this 01:47:16.963 --> 01:47:20.634 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% and voting with these issues in mind. 01:47:20.700 --> 01:47:26.907 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And the 2020 elections may be the first where some of 01:47:26.973 --> 01:47:30.744 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% this actually begins to get a front row seat and a 01:47:30.811 --> 01:47:34.147 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% dialogue about what kind of future we're going to 01:47:34.214 --> 01:47:36.583 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% have and what kind of society are we going to be. 01:47:36.650 --> 01:47:38.418 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And are we going to be a society of certainty or a 01:47:38.485 --> 01:47:39.186 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% society of freedom. 01:47:39.252 --> 01:47:42.589 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And where on that spectrum we're going to fall? 01:47:42.656 --> 01:47:45.926 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% Is it going to be under democratic governance or 01:47:45.992 --> 01:47:50.931 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% under the governance of companies that have no 01:47:50.997 --> 01:47:56.269 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% democratic brief and -- and no shareholder brief, 01:47:56.336 --> 01:47:58.338 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:40% for that matter. 01:47:58.405 --> 01:48:00.874 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% So, you know, this is -- this is a dynamism, 01:48:00.941 --> 01:48:04.878 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% this is part of being at a -- at a threshold in history 01:48:04.945 --> 01:48:08.882 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% when the answers are not all cooked and -- and 01:48:08.949 --> 01:48:09.950 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:53% we have to cook them. 01:48:14.454 --> 01:48:15.388 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% Well, thank you so much. 01:48:15.455 --> 01:48:23.897 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% [APPLAUSE] 01:48:23.964 --> 01:48:26.066 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:40% You've certainly given us a lot 01:48:26.132 --> 01:48:30.136 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% to think about, a lot to lose sleep over, and -- 01:48:30.203 --> 01:48:34.441 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% and -- but for us, and especially our economists 01:48:34.507 --> 01:48:38.478 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% to think about, you know, is this -- are the issues 01:48:38.545 --> 01:48:43.083 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% raised something that can be addressed for the 01:48:43.149 --> 01:48:44.084 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:38% antitrust laws? 01:48:44.150 --> 01:48:48.088 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% As you were talking about a lot of this I couldn't 01:48:48.154 --> 01:48:52.325 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% help but think about is the data being used, 01:48:52.392 --> 01:48:55.095 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:48% perhaps, to predict between competing 01:48:55.161 --> 01:48:59.933 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% companies, you know, what is the future activity of 01:49:00.000 --> 01:49:05.372 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% one competitor in response to a lot of competition is 01:49:05.438 --> 01:49:08.875 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% premised on the fact that if I lower my price I 01:49:08.942 --> 01:49:10.176 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:60% might gain market share. 01:49:10.243 --> 01:49:13.213 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% And you come up to a point where you maximize your 01:49:13.280 --> 01:49:16.216 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% profit by stealing market share from a competitor. 01:49:16.283 --> 01:49:18.885 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% But that's -- then you hope that the other person 01:49:18.952 --> 01:49:21.221 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% lowers the price and the consumer ultimately 01:49:21.288 --> 01:49:21.888 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:23% benefits. 01:49:21.955 --> 01:49:27.260 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% You know, if some of this data can be used between 01:49:27.327 --> 01:49:29.629 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% competitors, because it might be to their 01:49:29.696 --> 01:49:32.699 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% advantage, if they know the other person is not 01:49:32.766 --> 01:49:35.302 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% going to lower the price but maybe I'll increase 01:49:35.368 --> 01:49:38.238 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% the price by a dollar if I know that the competitor's 01:49:38.305 --> 01:49:40.407 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% going to increase it, and I don't have to have an 01:49:40.473 --> 01:49:42.742 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% agreement or a policing mechanism for that cartel 01:49:42.809 --> 01:49:46.913 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:53% activity, it makes me worry yet another way 01:49:46.980 --> 01:49:50.016 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:78% about the competitive aspects and this type of issue. 01:49:50.083 --> 01:49:52.919 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% So it's something that we need to be doing, that 01:49:52.986 --> 01:49:55.588 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:60% we have our chief of our technology section, 01:49:55.655 --> 01:49:58.925 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:75% Aaron Hogue sitting there, and our chief economist here, 01:49:58.992 --> 01:49:59.926 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:30% Jeff Wilder. 01:49:59.993 --> 01:50:02.495 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% They both will figure this out in the next week or 01:50:02.562 --> 01:50:06.433 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:55% two and we'll have the clear crystal answer. 01:50:06.499 --> 01:50:08.935 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% I cannot thank you enough for making the time -- 01:50:09.002 --> 01:50:09.936 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% Thank you. 01:50:10.003 --> 01:50:11.938 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:35% -- to come and speak to us. 01:50:12.005 --> 01:50:14.941 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:63% And I think everybody who is here and everyone 01:50:15.008 --> 01:50:18.445 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:73% who will watch it, I know our deputy attorney general, 01:50:18.511 --> 01:50:20.947 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% who's very much in tune with these issues, 01:50:21.014 --> 01:50:24.951 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% has expressed an interest, had a desire, 01:50:25.018 --> 01:50:28.288 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% had initially planned to be here and wanted to listen, 01:50:28.355 --> 01:50:32.292 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% and I think he will be watching this, as well, 01:50:32.359 --> 01:50:37.330 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:68% to see kind of the scope of the issues we're facing as 01:50:37.397 --> 01:50:39.966 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:65% a matter of, I think, broader public policy that 01:50:40.033 --> 01:50:40.967 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:33% you touch on. 01:50:41.034 --> 01:50:41.968 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:48% So thank you again. 01:50:42.035 --> 01:50:42.969 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% Thank you. 01:50:43.036 --> 01:50:45.472 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:58% We'll look forward to working with you as you 01:50:45.538 --> 01:50:47.307 align:middle line:79% position:50% size:50% continue to seek for the right answers. 01:50:47.374 --> 01:50:48.308 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:25% Thank you. 01:50:48.375 --> 01:50:48.975 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:45% Thank you so much. 01:50:49.042 --> 01:50:55.648 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:43% Thank you. Again. 01:50:55.715 --> 01:50:56.716 align:middle line:85% position:50% size:28% [APPLAUSE].